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Paul Nixon memorial.
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jamiemartin721  Reading 06 Apr 16 9.39am |
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Originally posted by Paul67
I meant the consequences of "ST Eric's" actions which are never mentioned in the media In which case Mathew Simmonds is equally to blame. I don't think its really fair to blame Eric Cantona for Paul Nixon's death, or assign any real responsibility. People who engage in violence related to football, do so for the pleasure it brings them, not for real or imagined causes. Events really just become an excuse to justify their actions, to themselves and others. The mythologisation of rivalries and events simply serves to fuel the justification and rationale of those who believe that violence is an acceptable form of entertainment and expression. Most 'firms' will make a big thing of defending their own fans, but then they'll also be the same people who other firms are protecting fans against. Granted in some cases, its 'like minded people on each other', but its also more often than not a case that anyone will do to many of these people, who'll come up with rationales like "Taking the p*ss" (aka enjoying the game) Essentially its a process of dehumanisation of the individual to justify the actions that the individual has already commited to. You don't go out carrying a knife and looking for a fight because Eric Cantona dropped kicked a mouthy tw*at. You go out looking for a fight and carrying a knife, because you like it and you want to stab someone. Colours and teams, just serve as a means of justification.
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 Kermit8  Hevon 06 Apr 16 10.58am |
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I never understood the blame put on Cantona, either. It's not like he directly encouraged the Man U lot to attack Palace fans months later. He talked about sardines instead. The really violent scum around that day will have been that way long before Simmonds had his 15 minutes.
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| sxp55 South Norwood 06 Apr 16 11.07am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
In which case Mathew Simmonds is equally to blame. I don't think its really fair to blame Eric Cantona for Paul Nixon's death, or assign any real responsibility. People who engage in violence related to football, do so for the pleasure it brings them, not for real or imagined causes. Events really just become an excuse to justify their actions, to themselves and others. The mythologisation of rivalries and events simply serves to fuel the justification and rationale of those who believe that violence is an acceptable form of entertainment and expression. Most 'firms' will make a big thing of defending their own fans, but then they'll also be the same people who other firms are protecting fans against. Granted in some cases, its 'like minded people on each other', but its also more often than not a case that anyone will do to many of these people, who'll come up with rationales like "Taking the p*ss" (aka enjoying the game) Essentially its a process of dehumanisation of the individual to justify the actions that the individual has already commited to. You don't go out carrying a knife and looking for a fight because Eric Cantona dropped kicked a mouthy tw*at. You go out looking for a fight and carrying a knife, because you like it and you want to stab someone. Colours and teams, just serve as a means of justification. very good post.
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| Mapletree Croydon 06 Apr 16 11.16am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
I never understood the blame put on Cantona, either. It's not like he directly encouraged the Man U lot to attack Palace fans months later. He talked about sardines instead. The really violent scum around that day will have been that way long before Simmonds had his 15 minutes. Palace became a focus for hate from a seriously hateful bunch. I don't know if you went to the second FA cup final, the anger directed at us was deeply alarming. This was linked, undoubtedly, to Cantona. They made that clear at the time, we were blamed for taunting their hero resulting in him getting banned. And I don't think C*ntona himself helped matters, he showed no proper remorse and just encouraged an arrogant 'it's not our fault it's those scummy cockneys' attitude to pervade. Mind you, I have never liked people that spit at my wife. And by the way, I don't blame Simmonds as much. Taunting people was part and parcel of football then and probably still is. C*ntona was a professional, paid a mint, should have kept just a modicum of sanity. If you blame Simmonds then everyone else that gets taunted would have open field on wading in. It's a huge thing to jump out of the pitch and into the middle of a crowd with a big kick, much bigger than running to the front and swearing at a player. Edited by Mapletree (06 Apr 2016 11.17am)
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| Kermit8 Hevon 06 Apr 16 11.34am |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Palace became a focus for hate from a seriously hateful bunch. I don't know if you went to the second FA cup final, the anger directed at us was deeply alarming. This was linked, undoubtedly, to Cantona. They made that clear at the time, we were blamed for taunting their hero resulting in him getting banned. And I don't think C*ntona himself helped matters, he showed no proper remorse and just encouraged an arrogant 'it's not our fault it's those scummy cockneys' attitude to pervade. Mind you, I have never liked people that spit at my wife. And by the way, I don't blame Simmonds as much. Taunting people was part and parcel of football then and probably still is. C*ntona was a professional, paid a mint, should have kept just a modicum of sanity. If you blame Simmonds then everyone else that gets taunted would have open field on wading in. It's a huge thing to jump out of the pitch and into the middle of a crowd with a big kick, much bigger than running to the front and swearing at a player. Edited by Mapletree (06 Apr 2016 11.17am) No. Wasn't there but have been around long enough and them to know how nasty some Man U 'fans' can be. Cantona got rightly punished for his actions. That should have been the end of it. Coventry fans, for example, didn't go around targeting Man U supporters after Keane assaulted Haaland and breaking his football career as well as his leg. Much worse than the Simmonds handbags that was.
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| Mapletree Croydon 06 Apr 16 11.46am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
No. Wasn't there but have been around long enough and them to know how nasty some Man U 'fans' can be. Cantona got rightly punished for his actions. That should have been the end of it. Coventry fans, for example, didn't go around targeting Man U supporters after Keane assaulted Haaland and breaking his football career as well as his leg. Much worse than the Simmonds handbags that was. Of course. This is a group that goes around looking for people to hate. And they found what they were looking for as a result of one moron's actions. We all know about the effects of the actions of individuals from the history between us and Br*ghton. It would never have become as it did without Venables and Mullery.
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| Mapletree Croydon 06 Apr 16 11.51am |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
No. Wasn't there but have been around long enough and them to know how nasty some Man U 'fans' can be. Cantona got rightly punished for his actions. That should have been the end of it. Coventry fans, for example, didn't go around targeting Man U supporters after Keane assaulted Haaland and breaking his football career as well as his leg. Much worse than the Simmonds handbags that was. Similarly us and Fulham. Evans was just becoming an outstanding player and international when Best 'did' him, apparently on purpose.
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| sxp55 South Norwood 06 Apr 16 11.59am |
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same group of fans that sing about the Hillsborough disaster but then complaint about the Munich song being sung.....
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Apr 16 11.59am |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
Palace became a focus for hate from a seriously hateful bunch. I don't know if you went to the second FA cup final, the anger directed at us was deeply alarming. This was linked, undoubtedly, to Cantona. They made that clear at the time, we were blamed for taunting their hero resulting in him getting banned. And I don't think C*ntona himself helped matters, he showed no proper remorse and just encouraged an arrogant 'it's not our fault it's those scummy cockneys' attitude to pervade. Mind you, I have never liked people that spit at my wife. And by the way, I don't blame Simmonds as much. Taunting people was part and parcel of football then and probably still is. C*ntona was a professional, paid a mint, should have kept just a modicum of sanity. If you blame Simmonds then everyone else that gets taunted would have open field on wading in. It's a huge thing to jump out of the pitch and into the middle of a crowd with a big kick, much bigger than running to the front and swearing at a player. Edited by Mapletree (06 Apr 2016 11.17am) The problem though, isn't Cantona, its those people who's life is so bereft of meaning that they take it upon themselves to 'avenge' an incident - that clearly was punished quite severely. Football is full of hate and enmity, you only have to listen to the abuse fans hurl at other teams and other, and that feeds into the factions who aren't able to separate the fantasy that is cathartic, and instead becomes a real thing. Why is it acceptable to repeatedly abuse someone from the stands, and then a grievous sin, when that person retaliates? Football fans generate enmity and spite for fun, as a general rule, because it adds meaning to the game. But its equally vital to remember just how absurd this is to take seriously (it is just a game). Its almost psychotic to attribute real life meaning to it beyond that, and for many the ability to separate the fantasy of entertainment from the reality of their existence is dangerously close to mental illness / psychosis. We even invent rules by which that hate is acceptable, and why violence is acceptable. Most firms will justify their violence in response to violence committed by other firms or fans. Someone gets badly injured or killed, and fans will use it to justify hatred of an entire group of fans. And this isn't unique to one club, you can bet that there are Palace fans who are as bad as those united fans, but its all of us, who buy into football as a fans that fuel enmity and hostility for utterly absurd and abstract reasons. The reality is probably that football for some reason attacts a lot of c**ts, for whom its a chance to be powerful and influential in a crowd, and in a mob, that is a dangerous infection, because its an environment where enmity, spite and rivalry are accepted behaviours, and that can easily lead to trouble and hatred. The real tragedy is that people think its worth seriously harming people, killing them or wounding them over a game.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Apr 16 12.05pm |
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Originally posted by sxp55
same group of fans that sing about the Hillsborough disaster but then complaint about the Munich song being sung..... Sums up the situation, its ok when its us, its wrong when its them. Although its probably not the same fans complaining. The Man Utd fans that complain about the Munich fans probably aren't the ones singing the Hillsborough songs - at least not at first. Then it becomes the justification for doing it. And for some, it becomes the justification for kicking the s**t out of someone who supports the other side. Look at a home crowd, how many people are actually singing. An away crowd, remember, will contain more vocal fans (and those who like the danger and thrill of violence probably like to go away). You can bet there will be Man Utd fans on their forums disgusted by the Hillsborough songs. The problem is we see some fans behaviour as represent of all opposition fans, but don't see our own fans in the same light.
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| Mapletree Croydon 06 Apr 16 12.05pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Why is it acceptable to repeatedly abuse someone from the stands, and then a grievous sin, when that person retaliates? This bit is plain wrong Jamie. Name calling and kung fu kicking are different. If it was retaliation, it sure as hell wasn't in kind. In addition, being a global superstar carries responsibilities. You get on the telly for a start. Millions of kids follow you. etc.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Apr 16 12.18pm |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
This bit is plain wrong Jamie. Name calling and kung fu kicking are different. If it was retaliation, it sure as hell wasn't in kind. In addition, being a global superstar carries responsibilities. You get on the telly for a start. Millions of kids follow you. etc. Firstly, it doesn't, we assume it has responsibilities, but if your a father, and your kid is more influenced by Eric Cantona than you, you've failed your kid. We like to blame other people for our failures, but in no way should celebrities or footballers be presented as role models or even considered them - and its a very stupid society that thinks that they are. They're an abstract influence. As a kid, the person I looked up to, was my parents, they were my primary role models - My source of moral and ethical grounding. I never needed anyone to tell me drop kicking someone was unacceptable or acceptable, because the use of violence is always failure (even in self defence - its the failure of being able to avoid confrontation). People abdicate the responsibility for their failures on to anything other than themselves - But if you're kids are learning ethics and morals basics from sportsmen, you're a bad parent. Not being a celebrity or on TV doesn't give you permission to act like a c**t. Cantona was wrong, but Simmonds was asking for it, and deserves no sympathy either.
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