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johnfirewall 01 Mar 16 11.57am | |
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Greek Finance Minister... You can't give Corbyn credit for sticking to his principles when you're implementing policy proven to fail. He must be a lunatic if he thinks you can actually look after people the way the Greeks did. Perhaps he thinks can resurrect the coal and steel industries to support it. This eccentric idealism is evidence that the he has less of a clue about the economy than previously suspected. Edited by johnfirewall (01 Mar 2016 12.06pm)
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jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Mar 16 12.03pm | |
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I think maybe a lot of the Greeks ended up being stitched up, but the country wasn't. It was entirely corrupt in reporting statistics up until around 2010 when the s**t started to get real. People tend to believe governments, even when the deal they offer seems 'remarkable', as they were delivering on this right up until the fan made contact with the s**t. But the country was spending money that the governments proceeding 2009, must have known they couldn't possibly afford to keep up - I'll imagine that a lot of that money didn't end up in the pockets of the average Greek citizen either.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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DanH SW2 01 Mar 16 12.07pm | |
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Originally posted by Hoof Hearted
Explain why? I've demonstrated the opposite view with supporting evidence. Show me what good he has done and why Greece being financially fcuked now isn't in any part down to him even though he was a major player? Well, you haven't really, you've spouted your opinion. Blaming Varoufakis for Greece's financial plight is like blaming Parish now for us going to administration under Goldberg. Varoufakis resigned his post when it became clear that the EU weren't going to release their stranglehold on Greece's debt and that his ideas weren't even going to be contemplated. He's had ideas in papers which have been widely supported, not just among the left, in relation to the European debt crisis. It's only EU politicians that have shut down his ideas, not academics, as it relates to restructuring debt in a way which allows a bit of breathing space for future growth. Trying to discredit him by lumping him in with decades of social and economic mismanagement of Greece just because he was Finance Minister for a couple of months is completely disingenuous.
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johnfirewall 01 Mar 16 12.14pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think maybe a lot of the Greeks ended up being stitched up, but the country wasn't. It was entirely corrupt in reporting statistics up until around 2010 when the s**t started to get real. People tend to believe governments, even when the deal they offer seems 'remarkable', as they were delivering on this right up until the fan made contact with the s**t. But the country was spending money that the governments proceeding 2009, must have known they couldn't possibly afford to keep up - I'll imagine that a lot of that money didn't end up in the pockets of the average Greek citizen either.
What can the public do when it's the government paying you? Some savvy Greeks were probably sceptical and saved their cash, unfortunately that would have sat in Greek banks.
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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 01 Mar 16 12.29pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Wow just wow, two pages and you managed to get refugees into the mix. And how can you dismiss tax collection, it is the mainstay of governments coffers, and the money they were borrowing instead of getting it off their own people came back to bite them in the ass. Have a quick hope across the med to Greece now and see how its working out for them now. Greece were masters of thier own downfall. The fact that Corbyn obvioulsy loves this bloke should come of no surprise, who's next I wonder a quick sauna with Mao Tse tung to discuss the peoples Army ? Give it a rest corbyn and his cohort (including the racist pig Abbott) are about as electable as fly covered dog egg. And whats more you know it.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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matt_himself Matataland 01 Mar 16 12.46pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
The last two items are emotive nonsense and I struggle to understand how they are related to the Greek bailout per se, as they are throwaway lines. The fact is that the Greeks and the EU systematically lied and/or accepted lies that allowed the Greeks to join the EU. The resulting chaos is their fault. I don't understand how you cannot see this. This is not some imperial takeover, it is the result of spendthrift governance, corrupt governance and ineffective governance. Being asked to privatise property to us as collateral for bailout loans seems fine. If you buy a house or flat you leave a deposit, why shouldn't it be the same with bankrupt governments? If I was a lender, given Greece's history, I would want collateral. Finally, unless you can explain yourself more, one cannot feel the breath of the unreconstructed leftie wafting through your position. It doesn't matter that the Greeks spent like kings and earned like paupers, what really matters is bashing the bankers & investors who bail them out. And you want a bailout with no consequences for the Greeks! How is that beneficial for the Greeks, tax payers in other EU countries and the EU project at large?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Hoof Hearted 01 Mar 16 1.16pm | |
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Originally posted by DanH
Well, you haven't really, you've spouted your opinion. Blaming Varoufakis for Greece's financial plight is like blaming Parish now for us going to administration under Goldberg. Varoufakis resigned his post when it became clear that the EU weren't going to release their stranglehold on Greece's debt and that his ideas weren't even going to be contemplated. He's had ideas in papers which have been widely supported, not just among the left, in relation to the European debt crisis. It's only EU politicians that have shut down his ideas, not academics, as it relates to restructuring debt in a way which allows a bit of breathing space for future growth. Trying to discredit him by lumping him in with decades of social and economic mismanagement of Greece just because he was Finance Minister for a couple of months is completely disingenuous. disingenuous - get you all grown up with your fancy words. He wasn't just a minister for a few months, he had been an adviser to a previous minister. His CV looks like a person who flounces around with his airy fairy ideology and gets out before the sh1t hits the fan. Economics is an area where too many variables come into play and chancers like him have excuses to make about why their original forecasts don't bear fruit. Like it or not he is tainted by the Greek financial collapse.
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Stuk Top half 01 Mar 16 2.47pm | |
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Originally posted by DanH
Well, you haven't really, you've spouted your opinion. Blaming Varoufakis for Greece's financial plight is like blaming Parish now for us going to administration under Goldberg. Varoufakis resigned his post when it became clear that the EU weren't going to release their stranglehold on Greece's debt and that his ideas weren't even going to be contemplated. He's had ideas in papers which have been widely supported, not just among the left, in relation to the European debt crisis. It's only EU politicians that have shut down his ideas, not academics, as it relates to restructuring debt in a way which allows a bit of breathing space for future growth. Trying to discredit him by lumping him in with decades of social and economic mismanagement of Greece just because he was Finance Minister for a couple of months is completely disingenuous. Varoufakis wasn't responsible for Greece's problems but he did exacerbate them with his naive game of chicken. You and nick seem to entirely blame the EU for f***ing over Greece yet you, presumably, want us to stay in this club that f***s over it's members?
Optimistic as ever |
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DanH SW2 01 Mar 16 3.57pm | |
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Originally posted by Stuk
Varoufakis wasn't responsible for Greece's problems but he did exacerbate them with his naive game of chicken. You and nick seem to entirely blame the EU for f***ing over Greece yet you, presumably, want us to stay in this club that f***s over it's members?
I don't blame the EU for the problems, they were very much instigated in Greece, but the EU have done as much (or little) as the Greek people to resolve the problems.
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Stuk Top half 01 Mar 16 3.59pm | |
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Originally posted by DanH
I don't blame the EU for the problems, they were very much instigated in Greece, but the EU have done as much (or little) as the Greek people to resolve the problems. Fair enough. Put that in your "cons" list. f*** over it's own members.
Optimistic as ever |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Mar 16 4.12pm | |
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Originally posted by johnfirewall
What can the public do when it's the government paying you? Some savvy Greeks were probably sceptical and saved their cash, unfortunately that would have sat in Greek banks. Plenty of companies offer incentives that turn out to be unachievable, and are withdrawn - such as final salary pensions. Thing about Greece, is that money wasn't just going to the people. 45% of the Greeks insane defence spending went to the US. Goldman Sachs was involved in essentially defrauding the EU and Greek people and facilitating the capacity of the Greek Government to meet Monetary Union requirements. I suspect that a lot of that deficit ended up going into private hands, and interests. Greek Nationals currently hold as much 20bn in evaded tax sitting in Swiss bank accounts which the country argues is the 'under reported tax'. There is a point where mismanagement is actually fraud. Edited by jamiemartin721 (01 Mar 2016 4.36pm)
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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chris123 hove actually 01 Mar 16 4.16pm | |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
This is untrue - Greece is paying less than 3%, less than Spain, Ireland and Portugal. Given the amount that has already been written off by Sovereign lenders and bond holders, I'd say anything but a stitch up.
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