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matt_himself Matataland 21 Jan 16 8.34pm | |
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Quote on me shed son at 21 Jan 2016 8.11pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
Quote on me shed son at 21 Jan 2016 6.24pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Jan 2016 3.53pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 2.19pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Jan 2016 1.57pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
Keep drugs illegal. The fact is that all drugs are damaging to the individual and society. Drugs break up families, destroy individuals and cause communities to dissolve. I'm not sure that's necessarily true in a literal sense. Drugs themselves don't break up families, people in families do that all the time. I think it becomes a convenience to blame the drug rather than the person, because it permits us to abscond responsibility to individuals we care for. Certainly addiction destroys families and kills individuals, but the problem of addiction is only representative of a few of the banned drugs. In terms of communities, the illegality is probably more damaging - notably the crime caused by gangs financed by drug money, and crime committed to obtain money for drugs. Its notable that primarily in terms of community the problem is heroin and cocaine both rather expensive drugs (who's price is massively inflated by the black market). By criminalising drugs I would argue that greater pressures are put on families, individuals and communities than the drugs themselves. Prison and fines put a greater stress on families, the high expense of the black market and the risk in terms of quality are more threatening to individuals, than the drug itself and communities suffer more because of the social impacts of a very lucrative black market than the cost of treating addicts. Also people who have been caught up in the criminal justice approach, find themselves having to deal with criminal records and the impact on employment as well as losing jobs and income. Attempts to deal with the problems of alcohol via prohibition, created a greater social problem than alcohol and addiction; which affected people who didn't have a problem. Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
I am sure that proponent's of drug liberalisation can provide many studies that 'prove' that drugs are more harmful illegal than legal but I just do not buy it. They aren't, there are just less impacts and risks. Heroin as a drug is more or less as harmful if produced legally or illegally. The difference is that legally its easier for the user to control the risks and reduce the costs very significantly (Heroin is sold at profit to the NHS for 1/35th the price of its street equivalent. Its also especially for those not involved. A very significant number of people who have no interest in drugs and don't even know someone with a drug problem, experience robbery, muggings, burglary, theft etc by addicts seeking to fund their addiction to crack and heroin (Finding 80-200 a day, means committing generally 240-600 a day in crime). Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
The amount of people I have personally seen had their lives f***ed up through drugs and wish they had never come into contact with them is enough for me. Me too, but I also grew up in an AA family, and saw those same kinds of stories from alcoholics as well - Its a problem. Banning the drugs in question hasn't helped any of those people either - And plenty of people have their lives f**ked up by the criminal justice factor, receiving criminal records because they like to get stoned rather than drunk, even in some cases spending time in prison. I completely disagree with you. I think your view is slanted by your politics and not the reality of drug abuse or the experience of those affected by drugs. Not so much my politics, but my experience with drugs and rehab. I'm with Jamie. It would be the single biggest blow you can deal to organised crime, and the current "war on drugs" doesn't seem to be having much of an impact. Plus you can argue that maybe the government doesn't have any business telling people what they can put into their bodies.
However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that. Fair enough, but are our current laws actually preventing anyone from taking drugs? I'm not sure there are many people who are not taking drugs for the only reason that they are illegal.
The difference between the situation and legislation of drugs is what happens. The social ramifications would be huge, in my opinion and I do not believe we have the social infrastructure to cope with a new batch of 500,000 crackheads in his country. This is unrelated but look at how well Germany is 'integrating' an untold number of immigrants into its society, think what an untold number of people who had just discovered crack would do to Britain. There is not to mention the suffering of souls who will no doubt be sold drugs much the same as Energy drinks are sold at the moment. Is that what we really want in this country? I am a firm believer in no. Anything else doesn't make sense to me.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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stuckinbristol In the woodwork. 22 Jan 16 9.21am | |
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Quote We are goin up! at 21 Jan 2016 8.27pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
It is your right to decide how you think. That is one of the things that is great about this country. However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that.
My personal view is that it's ridiculous that ecstasy, cannabis and LSD are illegal. Cocaine not sure, heroine should be illegal because it really is extraordinarily damaging and also probably doesn't fund anything like the criminality (I may be completely wrong here) that more widespread drugs do.
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DanH SW2 22 Jan 16 9.25am | |
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A big part of the reason that I tried stuff in the first place when I was youngster was because of the taboo of it all. If you knock that down by taking away the illegality and instead educate and inform about the effects then I can't see drug use massively rising if they were made legal. Just the same as just because everyone over the age of 18 can walk into a pub and buy a pint doesn't mean that the economy has grown to a halt other than those companies making park benches and industrial strength cider. Edited by DanH (22 Jan 2016 10.28am)
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jan 16 9.48am | |
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Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 9.21am
Quote We are goin up! at 21 Jan 2016 8.27pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
It is your right to decide how you think. That is one of the things that is great about this country. However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that.
My personal view is that it's ridiculous that ecstasy, cannabis and LSD are illegal. Cocaine not sure, heroine should be illegal because it really is extraordinarily damaging and also probably doesn't fund anything like the criminality (I may be completely wrong here) that more widespread drugs do.
That's a tragic story, and I have a friend who ended up in a similar way (not specifically from LSD by drug use either played a role or accelerated his psychosis). Although it often seems like the drug is the cause, its generally considered to be a accelerating factor in the development of problems like schizophrenia and mental illness. Drug use, according to psychiatry and psychology is more of a symptom of mental illness, than a causal factor. If it was a causal factor, then the expectation would be a rise in psychosis in the general population, which isn't the case. What usually is the case is that people associate the drug use with the psychosis, but tend to forget that psychosis and mental health problems can affect anyone. Often what you tend to see in mental health problems is people use drugs because they have problems developing. Thing is, by legalisation of drug use, money could be redirected from revenue raised and police savings, towards providing treatment for addiction and drug problems, rather than the current approach which generally abandons people.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jan 16 9.56am | |
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Quote DanH at 22 Jan 2016 9.25am
A big part of he reason that I tried stuff in the first place when I was youngster was because of the taboo of it all. If you knock that down by taking away the illegality and instead educate and inform about the effects then I can't see drug use massively rising if they were made legal. Just the same as just because everyone over the age of 18 can walk into a pub and buy a pint doesn't mean that the economy has grown to a halt other than those companies making park benches and industrial strength cider. Quite, its important to remember that something like 1-2% of drug use is attributed to heroin addiction. The problem cases, like with booze, are the minority. Everyone knows people who have slipped into this path, but they also know people who are alcoholics. Difference tends to be that we treat alcoholics as sick, and don't force them to find 80-200 quid a day to keep their addiction going. Also its true that people who go into the same pub and order a pint, is very very unlikely they'll end up on a bench drinking cider all day long.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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stuckinbristol In the woodwork. 22 Jan 16 10.17am | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jan 2016 9.48am
Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 9.21am
Quote We are goin up! at 21 Jan 2016 8.27pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
It is your right to decide how you think. That is one of the things that is great about this country. However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that.
My personal view is that it's ridiculous that ecstasy, cannabis and LSD are illegal. Cocaine not sure, heroine should be illegal because it really is extraordinarily damaging and also probably doesn't fund anything like the criminality (I may be completely wrong here) that more widespread drugs do.
That's a tragic story, and I have a friend who ended up in a similar way (not specifically from LSD by drug use either played a role or accelerated his psychosis). Although it often seems like the drug is the cause, its generally considered to be a accelerating factor in the development of problems like schizophrenia and mental illness. Drug use, according to psychiatry and psychology is more of a symptom of mental illness, than a causal factor. If it was a causal factor, then the expectation would be a rise in psychosis in the general population, which isn't the case. What usually is the case is that people associate the drug use with the psychosis, but tend to forget that psychosis and mental health problems can affect anyone. Often what you tend to see in mental health problems is people use drugs because they have problems developing. Thing is, by legalisation of drug use, money could be redirected from revenue raised and police savings, towards providing treatment for addiction and drug problems, rather than the current approach which generally abandons people.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jan 16 10.46am | |
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Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 10.17am
Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent with my post. What I was trying to say is that LSD is a crazy drug. Anyone who has taken it will tell stories of being totally out of control. Having said that it is still my favourite drug experience (although not for many years now) Quite a fan of myself. I love psychedelics like Shrooms and LSD, always have done. Although I've never really been totally out of control on them either, they seem to always have appealed to my mind set and psychology. Now amphetamines, different story massive problem drug for me....
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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stuckinbristol In the woodwork. 22 Jan 16 11.22am | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 22 Jan 2016 10.46am
Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 10.17am
Sorry, went off on a bit of a tangent with my post. What I was trying to say is that LSD is a crazy drug. Anyone who has taken it will tell stories of being totally out of control. Having said that it is still my favourite drug experience (although not for many years now) Quite a fan of myself. I love psychedelics like Shrooms and LSD, always have done. Although I've never really been totally out of control on them either, they seem to always have appealed to my mind set and psychology. Now amphetamines, different story massive problem drug for me....
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matt_himself Matataland 22 Jan 16 3.27pm | |
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Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 9.21am
Quote We are goin up! at 21 Jan 2016 8.27pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
It is your right to decide how you think. That is one of the things that is great about this country. However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that.
My personal view is that it's ridiculous that ecstasy, cannabis and LSD are illegal. Cocaine not sure, heroine should be illegal because it really is extraordinarily damaging and also probably doesn't fund anything like the criminality (I may be completely wrong here) that more widespread drugs do.
I agree. I think LSD is a very dangerous drug, as is 'harmless' skunk. It f***s people up, hence I am against legislation.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Frickin Saweet South Cronx 22 Jan 16 4.29pm | |
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Quote on me shed son at 21 Jan 2016 6.24pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Jan 2016 3.53pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 2.19pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 21 Jan 2016 1.57pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
Keep drugs illegal. The fact is that all drugs are damaging to the individual and society. Drugs break up families, destroy individuals and cause communities to dissolve. I'm not sure that's necessarily true in a literal sense. Drugs themselves don't break up families, people in families do that all the time. I think it becomes a convenience to blame the drug rather than the person, because it permits us to abscond responsibility to individuals we care for. Certainly addiction destroys families and kills individuals, but the problem of addiction is only representative of a few of the banned drugs. In terms of communities, the illegality is probably more damaging - notably the crime caused by gangs financed by drug money, and crime committed to obtain money for drugs. Its notable that primarily in terms of community the problem is heroin and cocaine both rather expensive drugs (who's price is massively inflated by the black market). By criminalising drugs I would argue that greater pressures are put on families, individuals and communities than the drugs themselves. Prison and fines put a greater stress on families, the high expense of the black market and the risk in terms of quality are more threatening to individuals, than the drug itself and communities suffer more because of the social impacts of a very lucrative black market than the cost of treating addicts. Also people who have been caught up in the criminal justice approach, find themselves having to deal with criminal records and the impact on employment as well as losing jobs and income. Attempts to deal with the problems of alcohol via prohibition, created a greater social problem than alcohol and addiction; which affected people who didn't have a problem. Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
I am sure that proponent's of drug liberalisation can provide many studies that 'prove' that drugs are more harmful illegal than legal but I just do not buy it. They aren't, there are just less impacts and risks. Heroin as a drug is more or less as harmful if produced legally or illegally. The difference is that legally its easier for the user to control the risks and reduce the costs very significantly (Heroin is sold at profit to the NHS for 1/35th the price of its street equivalent. Its also especially for those not involved. A very significant number of people who have no interest in drugs and don't even know someone with a drug problem, experience robbery, muggings, burglary, theft etc by addicts seeking to fund their addiction to crack and heroin (Finding 80-200 a day, means committing generally 240-600 a day in crime). Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 10.53am
The amount of people I have personally seen had their lives f***ed up through drugs and wish they had never come into contact with them is enough for me. Me too, but I also grew up in an AA family, and saw those same kinds of stories from alcoholics as well - Its a problem. Banning the drugs in question hasn't helped any of those people either - And plenty of people have their lives f**ked up by the criminal justice factor, receiving criminal records because they like to get stoned rather than drunk, even in some cases spending time in prison. I completely disagree with you. I think your view is slanted by your politics and not the reality of drug abuse or the experience of those affected by drugs. Not so much my politics, but my experience with drugs and rehab. I'm with Jamie. It would be the single biggest blow you can deal to organised crime, and the current "war on drugs" doesn't seem to be having much of an impact. Plus you can argue that maybe the government doesn't have any business telling people what they can put into their bodies. It would do wonders for the street quality of cocaine too, which has hit rock bottom in recent years, assuming the Government sold a decent grade, I'm talking 8/10 at least.
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Stuk Top half 22 Jan 16 4.56pm | |
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Shouldn't he be a bit more concerned with L&G moving out of his constituency than this.
Optimistic as ever |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Jan 16 11.35am | |
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Quote matt_himself at 22 Jan 2016 3.27pm
Quote stuckinbristol at 22 Jan 2016 9.21am
Quote We are goin up! at 21 Jan 2016 8.27pm
Quote matt_himself at 21 Jan 2016 8.06pm
It is your right to decide how you think. That is one of the things that is great about this country. However, I would disagree with you because if I agreed with legalising drugs and then, as a result, one of the new legion of crackheads raped and killed a or members of my family following them 'mainlining some s***', I would feel pretty s***. Drugs use is unpredictable hence it is illegal. I wouldn't mess with that.
My personal view is that it's ridiculous that ecstasy, cannabis and LSD are illegal. Cocaine not sure, heroine should be illegal because it really is extraordinarily damaging and also probably doesn't fund anything like the criminality (I may be completely wrong here) that more widespread drugs do.
I agree. I think LSD is a very dangerous drug, as is 'harmless' skunk. It f***s people up, hence I am against legislation. Very dangerous, probably not, but its not without danger obviously. The question I would posit is how dangerous compared with other substances of abuse, such as alcohol. Dangers of psychedelics are real, but compared to alcohol they're fairly mimimal and correlational rather than causal. Similarly skunk isn't harmless, but relatively comparable to alcohol. Phsyically LSD is well documented as being one of the least toxic and harmful drugs known to man. Risks are generally associated with mental health correlation - but these are tricky, given that LSD and similar drugs haven't increased psychosis in society in general. These drugs don't cause mental illness, which can affect anyone, but their use correlates to mental illness and are seen as being an accelerator of disorder, rather than the cause. Of course a factor that has to be taken into consideration is whether these drugs are used with alcohol. In my experience, they aren't, and this factor is often unconsidered. The impact of alcohol use and abuse on say police resources is monumental esp in relation to violence (a phenomena that you don't see with cannabis use, ecstasy or LSD use). The problem also is that illegal drugs don't decrease the dangers of use, they increase them.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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