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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 22 Dec 15 12.45pm | |
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I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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snytaxx London 22 Dec 15 1.24pm | |
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Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?) Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore?
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NickRobinson 22 Dec 15 1.34pm | |
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Hopefully, Britain will vote to leave the EU. But even if we don't, the EU will sooner or later collapse under the weight of its contradictions, just like other attempts to create political entities from established countries with different languages, race, religion and culture: USSR,Yugoslavia and the Balkans in general, Indian sub-continent, Middle East, and even the 'United' Kingdom.
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 22 Dec 15 4.10pm | |
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Quote snytaxx at 22 Dec 2015 1.24pm
Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?) Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore? Fair question. I'm actually rather hopeful that the potential for a "Federated States of Europe" has gone away thanks to the Euro and immigration / migration crises. I'd argue that UK geopolitical strategy is best served by being part of European Institutions for global trade, policing and participation in international forums. Our voice as an "independent with a few nukes" on the periphery of everything will be diminished. Like you, I don't want any part of currency integration. Where would you see us "anchored"?
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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snytaxx London 23 Dec 15 9.10am | |
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Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 4.10pm
Quote snytaxx at 22 Dec 2015 1.24pm
Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?) Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore? Fair question. I'm actually rather hopeful that the potential for a "Federated States of Europe" has gone away thanks to the Euro and immigration / migration crises. I'd argue that UK geopolitical strategy is best served by being part of European Institutions for global trade, policing and participation in international forums. Our voice as an "independent with a few nukes" on the periphery of everything will be diminished. Like you, I don't want any part of currency integration. Where would you see us "anchored"? I think most people like the idea of some sort of European trade bloc but I think thats where the support ends. If you look at the history of the EU it has essentially moved from a simple trade movement towards a political union. At no point has it ever looked at moving the other way. This is why i'm skeptical that the notion of a United States of Europe has or ever will truly go away. For me EU needs total and complete reform, kind of like a two tier membership level where you have countries who wish to politically integrate and countries who just want free trade. The problem is the EU is fundamentally unwilling to offer that. Instead it goes on about having its own police force, defence budget and foreign policy, you name it!. For me, the UK needs to wield its soft power by looking towards the BRICS and commonwealth countries as well as the developing world. Alot of countries out there want to trade with us, why we are prioritising countries based on geographical location as opposed to economical and political suitability? It just doesn't seem a particularly good idea to me.
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Hoof Hearted 23 Dec 15 11.34am | |
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Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. Is that it....that's your persuasive argument? LOL For a start we'll save ourselves billions by not subsidising the rest of Europe - remember this EU directive...? £1.7 Billion FFS...we were expected to pay because our economy was doing better than everyone else's! Time we stopped stumping up our hard earned cash to a faceless bureaucracy and spent it on our own people.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Dec 15 2.35pm | |
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Quote snytaxx at 23 Dec 2015 9.10am
Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 4.10pm
Quote snytaxx at 22 Dec 2015 1.24pm
Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?) Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore? Fair question. I'm actually rather hopeful that the potential for a "Federated States of Europe" has gone away thanks to the Euro and immigration / migration crises. I'd argue that UK geopolitical strategy is best served by being part of European Institutions for global trade, policing and participation in international forums. Our voice as an "independent with a few nukes" on the periphery of everything will be diminished. Like you, I don't want any part of currency integration. Where would you see us "anchored"? I think most people like the idea of some sort of European trade bloc but I think thats where the support ends. If you look at the history of the EU it has essentially moved from a simple trade movement towards a political union. At no point has it ever looked at moving the other way. This is why i'm skeptical that the notion of a United States of Europe has or ever will truly go away. For me EU needs total and complete reform, kind of like a two tier membership level where you have countries who wish to politically integrate and countries who just want free trade. The problem is the EU is fundamentally unwilling to offer that. Instead it goes on about having its own police force, defence budget and foreign policy, you name it!. For me, the UK needs to wield its soft power by looking towards the BRICS and commonwealth countries as well as the developing world. Alot of countries out there want to trade with us, why we are prioritising countries based on geographical location as opposed to economical and political suitability? It just doesn't seem a particularly good idea to me. I think ultimately the EU can serve a useful process. There is a massive need for a cross European police force (kind of a federal force) i.e. Interpol with actual powers - Cross national border crime is a massive problem and whilst each country does have its own National Crime teams, it really needs to be centralised around avoiding things like extradition. Despite the usual right wing rants about the ECHR its actually has made enforcement of UK law easier and beneficial towards the population of the Europe (as well as serving to arbitrate on conflicts within nations laws that previously took decades and millions to resolve). Problem of the EU is that it doesn't serve the interests of nations, but businesses (particualy trans-national corporations). The biggest issue isn't soverignity, but working migration that serves to undermine low salary and increasingly medium level salaried jobs through importation of foreign talent (leading to issues both nations, the supplied and supplier - try getting a polish plumber in Poland during the period prior to the crash).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Dec 15 2.38pm | |
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Quote Hoof Hearted at 23 Dec 2015 11.34am
Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm
I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. Is that it....that's your persuasive argument? LOL For a start we'll save ourselves billions by not subsidising the rest of Europe - remember this EU directive...? £1.7 Billion FFS...we were expected to pay because our economy was doing better than everyone else's! Time we stopped stumping up our hard earned cash to a faceless bureaucracy and spent it on our own people. Yeah because that's exactly what would happen - In no way would it be spunked up the wall on tax cuts to win elections. We can't even apply austerity cuts without racking up increased spending. I'm not against the idea of the EU using money from wealthier nations to support economies elsewhere in the EU, and nor should you be, if you don't want to see migration from those countries to the UK for work.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 23 Dec 15 4.01pm | |
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Quote Hoof Hearted at 23 Dec 2015 11.34am
Is that it....that's your persuasive argument? No. Was I meant to produce one?
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Dec 15 4.09pm | |
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Also, if we did Brexit wouldn't loads of new EU peeps come here before the new rules kicked in? oh, the irony of that happening. Thanks, eurosceptics.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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nhp61 Goring-By-Sea born, now in Brackne... 23 Dec 15 4.26pm | |
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Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm
Says ex-PM John Major Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.
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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Dec 15 4.28pm | |
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Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm
Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm
Says ex-PM John Major Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.
Big chest and massive boobs |
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