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EU Referendum Thread

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crystal balls Flag The Garden of Earthly Delights 11 Oct 15 10.06pm Send a Private Message to crystal balls Add crystal balls as a friend

Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm

Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it.

Q. Will we better off? No one knows
Q. Will we regain control of our borders? Probably not, if we want to continue trading with the EU they will impose conditions and free movement is likely to be one of them. If we insist on border controls British residents in Europe will suffer.
Q. Will we still be able to trade within Europe? They will want to rub our noses in it before agreeing terms. We cannot automatically expect the same terms as other non-members.
Q. Will we continue to kowtow to new EU regulations? If we want to continue trading? Yes.
Q. Will we have a say in those new regulations? No
Q. Will foreign companies based here pull out? Don't know.
Q. Will we get back control of our fisheries? Maybe, but it will part of a deal and probably nothing will change.
Q. Will we be able to repeal the Human Rights Act? We could, but it would likely be replaced by something else very similar.
Q. Could we rejoin if it all went horribly wrong? Can you imagine the conditions they would impose if they had us by the short and curlies.
Q. Could we just trade with someone else? We would have to, but if that is the case then there is nothing to stop us trading with them now.
Q. The EU would continue making new laws, would we have any say in them? No.

Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown.

Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining.

Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size.

I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune.

 

I used to be immortal
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stateside Flag Norfolk 11 Oct 15 10.13pm Send a Private Message to stateside Add stateside as a friend

Micky Flanagan should lead the Out Out campaine.

Deffently we should all vote

OUT

 
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davenotamonkey Flag 11 Oct 15 10.15pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm

Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it.

Q. Will we better off? No one knows
Q. Will we regain control of our borders? Probably not, if we want to continue trading with the EU they will impose conditions and free movement is likely to be one of them. If we insist on border controls British residents in Europe will suffer.
Q. Will we still be able to trade within Europe? They will want to rub our noses in it before agreeing terms. We cannot automatically expect the same terms as other non-members.
Q. Will we continue to kowtow to new EU regulations? If we want to continue trading? Yes.
Q. Will we have a say in those new regulations? No
Q. Will foreign companies based here pull out? Don't know.
Q. Will we get back control of our fisheries? Maybe, but it will part of a deal and probably nothing will change.
Q. Will we be able to repeal the Human Rights Act? We could, but it would likely be replaced by something else very similar.
Q. Could we rejoin if it all went horribly wrong? Can you imagine the conditions they would impose if they had us by the short and curlies.
Q. Could we just trade with someone else? We would have to, but if that is the case then there is nothing to stop us trading with them now.
Q. The EU would continue making new laws, would we have any say in them? No.

Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown.


Just to clarify then: there was no history before the EU, and no-one outside of the EU trades with the bloc without having to (eg) adopt the Euro, open their borders, give executive control over signing off their national budget to Brussels?

There's a shocking level of scaremongery going on from the "IN" campaign. I for one, welcome the swarm of locusts and the Thames turning red.

 
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davenotamonkey Flag 11 Oct 15 10.18pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 10.06pm

Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm

Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it.

Q. Will we better off? No one knows
Q. Will we regain control of our borders? Probably not, if we want to continue trading with the EU they will impose conditions and free movement is likely to be one of them. If we insist on border controls British residents in Europe will suffer.
Q. Will we still be able to trade within Europe? They will want to rub our noses in it before agreeing terms. We cannot automatically expect the same terms as other non-members.
Q. Will we continue to kowtow to new EU regulations? If we want to continue trading? Yes.
Q. Will we have a say in those new regulations? No
Q. Will foreign companies based here pull out? Don't know.
Q. Will we get back control of our fisheries? Maybe, but it will part of a deal and probably nothing will change.
Q. Will we be able to repeal the Human Rights Act? We could, but it would likely be replaced by something else very similar.
Q. Could we rejoin if it all went horribly wrong? Can you imagine the conditions they would impose if they had us by the short and curlies.
Q. Could we just trade with someone else? We would have to, but if that is the case then there is nothing to stop us trading with them now.
Q. The EU would continue making new laws, would we have any say in them? No.

Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown.

Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining.

Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size.

I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune.

Except a large fraction of these "rules" are handed down from above the EU in the first place. We give up our seat at the WTO so the EU can "represent" us, whereas we should be leveraging our position as 6th largest economy in the world for our own specific benefit.


 
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davenotamonkey Flag 11 Oct 15 10.24pm Send a Private Message to davenotamonkey Add davenotamonkey as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.58pm

Quote Sg Bilko at 11 Oct 2015 7.35pm

I think the EU should not wait for the vote, just kick erm out, complete waste of time and space.

While their at it as they don't want to be part of the Europe, boot them out of UEFA also.


Yeah maybe then the Netherlands can pick up the slack of being a major net contributor instead of being a tiny one.

The main money comes from Germany, France and us. Only a moron does nothing to stop losing a major client.


Don't worry - the Dutch have their own EU referendum on the way. Remember how they voted for the EU constitution? No, the EU commission didn't either.

 
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oldcodger Flag 11 Oct 15 10.33pm Send a Private Message to oldcodger Add oldcodger as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.47pm

Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 6.27pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 5.55pm

Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 5.20pm

I would say that the IN vote is edging it, but I don't think you can gauge anything by the number of UKIP voters because many millions of people who want out of the EU didn't or wouldn't vote for them for a multitude of reasons.


'Millions of people'?.....How on earth would you know that?

I was replying to Kermit's comment about how he didn't think the OUT campaign could win, partially based on the number of votes UKIP got. I said that's a bad measure as many millions of people in favour of leaving the UK won't have voted UKIP. I'm not exactly sure what part of this you disagree with.


Edited by oldcodger (11 Oct 2015 6.31pm)

Really?

That's a bit like saying that those who voted Tory want to stay in the EU because they didn't vote Ukip.

It's blindingly obvious that a large percentage of Tory voters are anti EU......They don't vote Ukip because they don't want to let Labour in and through party loyalty.

If you add say....thirty percent of the Tory election vote (out of thirty eight) to Ukip's vote and a few percent from Labour's......I'd say that the projection is very interesting indeed.


Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Oct 2015 9.50pm)

I myself am stating that the anti EU crowd cannot solely be measured by who has voted for UKIP. Again, I'm not sure what you're reading.


Edited by oldcodger (11 Oct 2015 10.35pm)

 
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crystal balls Flag The Garden of Earthly Delights 11 Oct 15 11.00pm Send a Private Message to crystal balls Add crystal balls as a friend

Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Oct 2015 10.18pm

Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 10.06pm

Quote Catfish at 11 Oct 2015 9.12pm

Like many people I am in a quandary where a large part of me says lets get out. It is made more difficult by the fact that there are people whose views I respect on both sides of the debate.

Essentially, it is rather like the Scottish referendum were you have to decide whether to take a leap into the unknown or stick within the familiar system that you don't like and try to change it.

Q. Will we better off? No one knows
Q. Will we regain control of our borders? Probably not, if we want to continue trading with the EU they will impose conditions and free movement is likely to be one of them. If we insist on border controls British residents in Europe will suffer.
Q. Will we still be able to trade within Europe? They will want to rub our noses in it before agreeing terms. We cannot automatically expect the same terms as other non-members.
Q. Will we continue to kowtow to new EU regulations? If we want to continue trading? Yes.
Q. Will we have a say in those new regulations? No
Q. Will foreign companies based here pull out? Don't know.
Q. Will we get back control of our fisheries? Maybe, but it will part of a deal and probably nothing will change.
Q. Will we be able to repeal the Human Rights Act? We could, but it would likely be replaced by something else very similar.
Q. Could we rejoin if it all went horribly wrong? Can you imagine the conditions they would impose if they had us by the short and curlies.
Q. Could we just trade with someone else? We would have to, but if that is the case then there is nothing to stop us trading with them now.
Q. The EU would continue making new laws, would we have any say in them? No.

Unpopular and unromantic view, but I think I prefer the known to the unknown.

Several nails hit firmly on the head! Particularly the one about re-joining.

Countries like Norway and Iceland who are outside the EU are very, very different to the UK, both economically and in population size.

I'd rather we had some say in forming EU regulations, which would affect us in or out, rather than let the others make the rules and have to dance to their tune.

Except a large fraction of these "rules" are handed down from above the EU in the first place. We give up our seat at the WTO so the EU can "represent" us, whereas we should be leveraging our position as 6th largest economy in the world for our own specific benefit.


Correction; a large fraction of these rules have been agreed by the members of the EU following debate by ALL members (including the UK). The EU is not a separate entity, but a grouping of all member states. Sometimes things go the UK's way in the structure of rulings, sometimes they don't. In the same fashion, UK internal rulings often benefit some areas of the country over others.

We used to be the world's largest economy at one point; we were for many years the second, now we are the sixth, and this trend of diminishing may well continue. Being part of the largest economic block in the world we pool our international influence with the whole EU.

We no longer have an empire, alone we are a small island with some special qualities.I feel that our position is best served within an economic alliance, retaining what makes the UK special, but using the same economies of scale which has been so successful in the USA.

 

I used to be immortal
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Stirlingsays Flag 11 Oct 15 11.02pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 10.33pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 9.47pm

Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 6.27pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 11 Oct 2015 5.55pm

Quote oldcodger at 11 Oct 2015 5.20pm

I would say that the IN vote is edging it, but I don't think you can gauge anything by the number of UKIP voters because many millions of people who want out of the EU didn't or wouldn't vote for them for a multitude of reasons.


'Millions of people'?.....How on earth would you know that?

I was replying to Kermit's comment about how he didn't think the OUT campaign could win, partially based on the number of votes UKIP got. I said that's a bad measure as many millions of people in favour of leaving the UK won't have voted UKIP. I'm not exactly sure what part of this you disagree with.


Edited by oldcodger (11 Oct 2015 6.31pm)

Really?

That's a bit like saying that those who voted Tory want to stay in the EU because they didn't vote Ukip.

It's blindingly obvious that a large percentage of Tory voters are anti EU......They don't vote Ukip because they don't want to let Labour in and through party loyalty.

If you add say....thirty percent of the Tory election vote (out of thirty eight) to Ukip's vote and a few percent from Labour's......I'd say that the projection is very interesting indeed.


Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Oct 2015 9.50pm)

I myself am stating that the anti EU crowd cannot solely be measured by who has voted for UKIP. Again, I'm not sure what you're reading.


Edited by oldcodger (11 Oct 2015 10.35pm)

Nope you're right, my mistake.

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Flag 11 Oct 15 11.05pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote crystal balls at 11 Oct 2015 11.00pm

Correction; a large fraction of these rules have been agreed by the members of the EU following debate by ALL members (including the UK). The EU is not a separate entity, but a grouping of all member states. Sometimes things go the UK's way in the structure of rulings, sometimes they don't. In the same fashion, UK internal rulings often benefit some areas of the country over others.

We used to be the world's largest economy at one point; we were for many years the second, now we are the sixth, and this trend of diminishing may well continue. Being part of the largest economic block in the world we pool our international influence with the whole EU.

We no longer have an empire, alone we are a small island with some special qualities.I feel that our position is best served within an economic alliance, retaining what makes the UK special, but using the same economies of scale which has been so successful in the USA.


'Sometimes things go the UK's way in the structure of rulings, sometimes they don't.'

In pretty much the same way they would if we weren't there either.

1 out of 28 countries makes very little difference.....Especially when most of the alliances we are in are minorities.

 

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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oldcodger Flag 11 Oct 15 11.10pm Send a Private Message to oldcodger Add oldcodger as a friend

Quote Cameron's Four Key Demands


Forcing Brussels to make “an explicit statement” that Britain will be kept out of any move towards a European superstate. This will require an exemption for the UK from the EU’s founding principle of “ever closer union”.

An “explicit statement” that the euro is not the official currency of the EU, making clear that Europe is a “multi-currency” union. Ministers want this declaration in order to protect the status of the pound sterling as a legitimate currency that will always exist.

A new “red card” system to bring power back from Brussels to Britain. This would give groups of national parliaments the power to stop unwanted directives being handed down and to scrap existing EU laws.

A new structure for the EU itself. The block of 28 nations must be reorganised to prevent the nine countries that are not in the eurozone being dominated by the 19 member states that are, with particular protections for the City of London.

These all sound that things that can be 'promised' then backtracked on after the event, they're not actual treaty changes. Dave will play this like the Scottish Referendum. Lot's of demonising of the vote to leave and just enough to get the floating voters on board. Sneaky but it'll probably work. There's a lot of internal pressure to stay, but also external.. the EU, the US. As much as we may value people power, a lot can and will be done to tip the scales.

 
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Percy of Peckham Flag Eton Mess 12 Oct 15 5.36am Send a Private Message to Percy of Peckham Add Percy of Peckham as a friend

Depends what's driving this referendum ...business or immigration? Both issues will probably not be resolved as the result of mass debating in public over EU membership!

Edited by Percy of Peckham (12 Oct 2015 6.05am)

 

Denial is not just a river in Egypt!
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Sportyteacher Flag London 12 Oct 15 7.22am Send a Private Message to Sportyteacher Add Sportyteacher as a friend

Quote Percy of Peckham at 12 Oct 2015 5.36am

Depends what's driving this referendum ...business or immigration? Both issues will probably not be resolved as the result of mass debating in public over EU membership!

Edited by Percy of Peckham (12 Oct 2015 6.05am)

Move OUT of Europe and border controls would move from the likes of Calais to our shores e.g. Dover. Financial heart of Europe has largely been London therefore financial sector including jobs would face a massive hit if we were to pull out. As much as I hate the banks etc, they are a key aspect of UK economy.

UK cannot afford to indulge in isolationist, ego driven belief that we can manage ourselves - we depend so much upon trading with Europe. Cameron is right to bargain with Europe upon what represents the better interests of not only home nation but also restructuring governance. The crunch will be what response he receives.

 
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