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Cameron does a Blair

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Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 08 Sep 15 9.08am Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

All those pontificating as to whether killing this vermin was legal have the luxury of doing it from your armchair without fear that getting it wrong could costs innocent lives.

There are hundreds of men and women who risk their lives and careers every day so you can sit behind a keyboard put the world to rights.

Sorry, but sometimes s*** just needs to get done.

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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legaleagle Flag 08 Sep 15 9.09am

Quote chris123 at 08 Sep 2015 7.07am

Parliamentary democracy means you are accountable to Parliament, not you have to get its ok before you do anything.


I agree there is no constitutional reason the British government has to get parliamentary approval for military action – it can use royal prerogative powers to send the armed forces into action.

But it has become a convention, since the 2003 Iraq War, for ministers to put it to a Commons vote and ministers repeatedly promised parliament and the public that there would be no military operations in Syria without parliamentary approval.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Sep 15 10.14am

Quote pefwin at 07 Sep 2015 7.08pm

Having been veto'd by Government, he uses drones in Syria.

I can guess what an MP would say but is defying a Parliament worse than a dodgy dossier?

Whilst the justification is fine I accept the elimination of valid targets in a conflict, it does represent an issue that needs to be addressed - Personally I'm not against the use of Drones per se, but it the UK government has set out that they cannot be used, through the democratic processes, then the decision by a prime minister to go against the lawful directive of parliment, is a very dangerous precident and action that breaks with the notion of democratic process.

No one should be above or beyond the law of the land and the people, irrespective of the value.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Lyons550 Flag Shirley 08 Sep 15 10.19am Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.18pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 07 Sep 2015 10.09pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.02pm

Quote Catfish at 07 Sep 2015 7.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?


Can you really not see a problem?
Prime Minister: HM Govt have good grounds to believe there is a substantial risk to the country and I need to deploy deadly force but I can't give you any more details without giving the game away. Oh, actually, I think I might just have.


How about a simple,"HM Govt would like to up the level of military force we use in Iraq/Syria beyond that we currently have authorisation to do.Please can we do so? Just like he asked Parliament previously.Democracy might be a drag but no reason whatsoever to ignore due process in this instance.


Oh, and you two chaps in Syria that we're targeting, would you mind just staying in the same place for a couple of weeks while we debate in Parliament whether it's OK to pop over and kill you?

I get it.Lets just ignore parliament and democracy and do whatever we like...

An emergency debate could be held and over within a few days.

Likely meaningful effect of 1-2 weeks' delay by the UK in "drone" operations on strategic situation in Iraq/Syria: Big fat zero.The extra time could usefully be used for extra training so we don't have the unfortunate accidents leading to deaths of kids and innocent civilians the US has had from using drones elsewhere ,that would probably act as a far greater recruiting tool/catalyst for local support for ISIS than any 2 week delay by us in getting drones "live".

Anyway,not widely appreciated that UK companies have been engaged by the US military for drone programmes for some time

Edited by legaleagle (07 Sep 2015 10.19pm)

How do you know that was the case in this instance and that it wasn't an operational imperative that 1-2 weeks or even days could've hampered or worse resulted in the death of British Citizens (or as being reported Monarchy)?

Are you in full receipt of the facts in this matter?

I'd suggest that the delay in going to Parliament is the issue here...not the decision to act. I'm in complete agreement that due process (in most cases) should be followed...but where that due process could affect the lives of British Citizens then at times a judgement call has to be made.

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Sep 15 10.19am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 9.08am

All those pontificating as to whether killing this vermin was legal have the luxury of doing it from your armchair without fear that getting it wrong could costs innocent lives.

There are hundreds of men and women who risk their lives and careers every day so you can sit behind a keyboard put the world to rights.

Sorry, but sometimes s*** just needs to get done.

Why bother with parliment, democracy etc then. If parliment has stated no military strikes in Syria, then the Prime Minister is not exempt from that, even if it may hypotheically save lives, it then becomes for a independent court, based on the evidence to decide.

The end justifies the means, is exactly the modus operandi used by IS.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Sep 15 10.21am

Quote Lyons550 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.18pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 07 Sep 2015 10.09pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.02pm

Quote Catfish at 07 Sep 2015 7.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?


Can you really not see a problem?
Prime Minister: HM Govt have good grounds to believe there is a substantial risk to the country and I need to deploy deadly force but I can't give you any more details without giving the game away. Oh, actually, I think I might just have.


How about a simple,"HM Govt would like to up the level of military force we use in Iraq/Syria beyond that we currently have authorisation to do.Please can we do so? Just like he asked Parliament previously.Democracy might be a drag but no reason whatsoever to ignore due process in this instance.


Oh, and you two chaps in Syria that we're targeting, would you mind just staying in the same place for a couple of weeks while we debate in Parliament whether it's OK to pop over and kill you?

I get it.Lets just ignore parliament and democracy and do whatever we like...

An emergency debate could be held and over within a few days.

Likely meaningful effect of 1-2 weeks' delay by the UK in "drone" operations on strategic situation in Iraq/Syria: Big fat zero.The extra time could usefully be used for extra training so we don't have the unfortunate accidents leading to deaths of kids and innocent civilians the US has had from using drones elsewhere ,that would probably act as a far greater recruiting tool/catalyst for local support for ISIS than any 2 week delay by us in getting drones "live".

Anyway,not widely appreciated that UK companies have been engaged by the US military for drone programmes for some time

Edited by legaleagle (07 Sep 2015 10.19pm)

How do you know that was the case in this instance and that it wasn't an operational imperative that 1-2 weeks or even days could've hampered or worse resulted in the death of British Citizens (or as being reported Monarchy)?

Are you in full receipt of the facts in this matter?

I'd suggest that the delay in going to Parliament is the issue here...not the decision to act. I'm in complete agreement that due process (in most cases) should be followed...but where that due process could affect the lives of British Citizens then at times a judgement call has to be made.

To suspend due process for convenience is far more of a threat to the british way of life than any terrorist group could be.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Lyons550 Flag Shirley 08 Sep 15 10.25am Send a Private Message to Lyons550 Add Lyons550 as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Sep 2015 10.21am

Quote Lyons550 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.18pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 07 Sep 2015 10.09pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.02pm

Quote Catfish at 07 Sep 2015 7.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?


Can you really not see a problem?
Prime Minister: HM Govt have good grounds to believe there is a substantial risk to the country and I need to deploy deadly force but I can't give you any more details without giving the game away. Oh, actually, I think I might just have.


How about a simple,"HM Govt would like to up the level of military force we use in Iraq/Syria beyond that we currently have authorisation to do.Please can we do so? Just like he asked Parliament previously.Democracy might be a drag but no reason whatsoever to ignore due process in this instance.


Oh, and you two chaps in Syria that we're targeting, would you mind just staying in the same place for a couple of weeks while we debate in Parliament whether it's OK to pop over and kill you?

I get it.Lets just ignore parliament and democracy and do whatever we like...

An emergency debate could be held and over within a few days.

Likely meaningful effect of 1-2 weeks' delay by the UK in "drone" operations on strategic situation in Iraq/Syria: Big fat zero.The extra time could usefully be used for extra training so we don't have the unfortunate accidents leading to deaths of kids and innocent civilians the US has had from using drones elsewhere ,that would probably act as a far greater recruiting tool/catalyst for local support for ISIS than any 2 week delay by us in getting drones "live".

Anyway,not widely appreciated that UK companies have been engaged by the US military for drone programmes for some time

Edited by legaleagle (07 Sep 2015 10.19pm)

How do you know that was the case in this instance and that it wasn't an operational imperative that 1-2 weeks or even days could've hampered or worse resulted in the death of British Citizens (or as being reported Monarchy)?

Are you in full receipt of the facts in this matter?

I'd suggest that the delay in going to Parliament is the issue here...not the decision to act. I'm in complete agreement that due process (in most cases) should be followed...but where that due process could affect the lives of British Citizens then at times a judgement call has to be made.

To suspend due process for convenience is far more of a threat to the british way of life than any terrorist group could be.


Im not saying suspend it...i'm saying make it quicker. However, because of the current convoluted timescales involved and the potential (alleged) threat it made sense to make the judgement call.

If anything should be learned from this is that the system needs to be more flexible and efficient.

Edited by Lyons550 (08 Sep 2015 10.26am)

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 08 Sep 15 10.49am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Sep 2015 10.21am

Quote Lyons550 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.18pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 07 Sep 2015 10.09pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.02pm

Quote Catfish at 07 Sep 2015 7.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?


Can you really not see a problem?
Prime Minister: HM Govt have good grounds to believe there is a substantial risk to the country and I need to deploy deadly force but I can't give you any more details without giving the game away. Oh, actually, I think I might just have.


How about a simple,"HM Govt would like to up the level of military force we use in Iraq/Syria beyond that we currently have authorisation to do.Please can we do so? Just like he asked Parliament previously.Democracy might be a drag but no reason whatsoever to ignore due process in this instance.


Oh, and you two chaps in Syria that we're targeting, would you mind just staying in the same place for a couple of weeks while we debate in Parliament whether it's OK to pop over and kill you?

I get it.Lets just ignore parliament and democracy and do whatever we like...

An emergency debate could be held and over within a few days.

Likely meaningful effect of 1-2 weeks' delay by the UK in "drone" operations on strategic situation in Iraq/Syria: Big fat zero.The extra time could usefully be used for extra training so we don't have the unfortunate accidents leading to deaths of kids and innocent civilians the US has had from using drones elsewhere ,that would probably act as a far greater recruiting tool/catalyst for local support for ISIS than any 2 week delay by us in getting drones "live".

Anyway,not widely appreciated that UK companies have been engaged by the US military for drone programmes for some time

Edited by legaleagle (07 Sep 2015 10.19pm)

How do you know that was the case in this instance and that it wasn't an operational imperative that 1-2 weeks or even days could've hampered or worse resulted in the death of British Citizens (or as being reported Monarchy)?

Are you in full receipt of the facts in this matter?

I'd suggest that the delay in going to Parliament is the issue here...not the decision to act. I'm in complete agreement that due process (in most cases) should be followed...but where that due process could affect the lives of British Citizens then at times a judgement call has to be made.

To suspend due process for convenience is far more of a threat to the british way of life than any terrorist group could be.

Nonsense. It is a war - do what is necessary.

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 08 Sep 15 10.50am Send a Private Message to Y Ddraig Goch Add Y Ddraig Goch as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 9.08am

All those pontificating as to whether killing this vermin was legal have the luxury of doing it from your armchair without fear that getting it wrong could costs innocent lives.

There are hundreds of men and women who risk their lives and careers every day so you can sit behind a keyboard put the world to rights.

Sorry, but sometimes s*** just needs to get done.

Why bother with parliment, democracy etc then. If parliment has stated no military strikes in Syria, then the Prime Minister is not exempt from that, even if it may hypotheically save lives, it then becomes for a independent court, based on the evidence to decide.

The end justifies the means, is exactly the modus operandi used by IS.

These people are constantly on the move, intelligence can be out of date in hours. Referring to parliament for operational decisions would be farcical

Also, I may be mistaken but the parliamentary vote at the time was regarding attacking Assad's forces in Syria.

I am not advocating the security services running wild but this so called need for transparency is counter productive. Harriet Harperson trying to score political points yesterday just looked weak and cheap.

As I said before and I stand by it, there are times when decisions (tough ones) have to be made and made quickly to get s*** done.



 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Sep 15 11.25am

Quote leggedstruggle at 08 Sep 2015 10.49am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Sep 2015 10.21am

Quote Lyons550 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.18pm

Quote palace_in_frogland at 07 Sep 2015 10.09pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 10.02pm

Quote Catfish at 07 Sep 2015 7.48pm

Quote legaleagle at 07 Sep 2015 7.36pm

Then take it back to Parliament for a vote before you do it.What's the problem about proceeding that way?


Can you really not see a problem?
Prime Minister: HM Govt have good grounds to believe there is a substantial risk to the country and I need to deploy deadly force but I can't give you any more details without giving the game away. Oh, actually, I think I might just have.


How about a simple,"HM Govt would like to up the level of military force we use in Iraq/Syria beyond that we currently have authorisation to do.Please can we do so? Just like he asked Parliament previously.Democracy might be a drag but no reason whatsoever to ignore due process in this instance.


Oh, and you two chaps in Syria that we're targeting, would you mind just staying in the same place for a couple of weeks while we debate in Parliament whether it's OK to pop over and kill you?

I get it.Lets just ignore parliament and democracy and do whatever we like...

An emergency debate could be held and over within a few days.

Likely meaningful effect of 1-2 weeks' delay by the UK in "drone" operations on strategic situation in Iraq/Syria: Big fat zero.The extra time could usefully be used for extra training so we don't have the unfortunate accidents leading to deaths of kids and innocent civilians the US has had from using drones elsewhere ,that would probably act as a far greater recruiting tool/catalyst for local support for ISIS than any 2 week delay by us in getting drones "live".

Anyway,not widely appreciated that UK companies have been engaged by the US military for drone programmes for some time

Edited by legaleagle (07 Sep 2015 10.19pm)

How do you know that was the case in this instance and that it wasn't an operational imperative that 1-2 weeks or even days could've hampered or worse resulted in the death of British Citizens (or as being reported Monarchy)?

Are you in full receipt of the facts in this matter?

I'd suggest that the delay in going to Parliament is the issue here...not the decision to act. I'm in complete agreement that due process (in most cases) should be followed...but where that due process could affect the lives of British Citizens then at times a judgement call has to be made.

To suspend due process for convenience is far more of a threat to the british way of life than any terrorist group could be.

Nonsense. It is a war - do what is necessary.

Except of course we haven't declared war, and its an attack on the territory of a soverign nation, and of course the targeted elimination of british citizens based on intelligence, without parliamentary ascent.

I'm inclined to think its the right decision, but when a prime minister specifically goes against the process and will of parliament, then it needs to be addressed, especially when it involved an action that parliament has previously disagreed with.

Had parliament agreed to extending missions into Syria, then it would be fine. Except they didn't.

Or do you believe that the Prime Minister should be de facto above the law and will of parliament.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hoof Hearted 08 Sep 15 11.30am

I just wish that the media would stop referring to these people as 'British Subjects'.

They are evil scum who have no place in society and I for one applaud David Cameron for having the balls to order their destruction before they were able to carry out any attacks.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Sep 15 11.35am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 10.50am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 08 Sep 2015 10.19am

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 08 Sep 2015 9.08am

All those pontificating as to whether killing this vermin was legal have the luxury of doing it from your armchair without fear that getting it wrong could costs innocent lives.

There are hundreds of men and women who risk their lives and careers every day so you can sit behind a keyboard put the world to rights.

Sorry, but sometimes s*** just needs to get done.

Why bother with parliment, democracy etc then. If parliment has stated no military strikes in Syria, then the Prime Minister is not exempt from that, even if it may hypotheically save lives, it then becomes for a independent court, based on the evidence to decide.

The end justifies the means, is exactly the modus operandi used by IS.

These people are constantly on the move, intelligence can be out of date in hours. Referring to parliament for operational decisions would be farcical

Also, I may be mistaken but the parliamentary vote at the time was regarding attacking Assad's forces in Syria.

I am not advocating the security services running wild but this so called need for transparency is counter productive. Harriet Harperson trying to score political points yesterday just looked weak and cheap.

As I said before and I stand by it, there are times when decisions (tough ones) have to be made and made quickly to get s*** done.

I know all of that. The UK cannot launch military operations in Syria unless they have been invited to do so by the Syrian government, the UN security council, without it being an act of war. That applies to all nations. There is some grounds where the action maybe 'pre-emptive' but that's unlikely in this case (such as Iraq, and look how well that turned out).

Military strikes have been approved by parliament only for use in Iraq. The government failed to get agreement for strikes in Syria from Parliament. As a result the UK has gotten around this by 'lending support to US missions, which puts UK pilots under US command', a technicality.

But the Prime Minister and UK armed forces had plenty of time to seek 'targeted assassination' permission for Syria over the period, but never presented this to parliament to vote on, they just went ahead and acted against the express will of parliament.

I mean how unlikely was it that we might want to target IS individuals in Syria, whilst fighting a 'war' against IS.

See that's what I would have done, when finding out Parliament wouldn't ascent to military action in Syria, would be to then approach parliament for permission to target known assets of IS in Syria immediately.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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