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sa_eagle Just outside Cape Town 12 Jun 15 6.05pm | |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
Cynic or realist? It's a fine line! |
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 6.07pm | |
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Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 12 Jun 2015 5.53pm
Quote SirPeanut at 12 Jun 2015 5.14pm
He also hates the close minded 'non-thinking' of the average religious person and the child indoctrination that occurs in religious families. As do I. Well if you would like to stereotype religious people by saying their (non-)thinking is close minded then fine. Personally I think that labelling people casually in this way is a bit of an obstinate means of making a point, a bit like your stereotype of what you see as the average religious person actually. And as for indoctrination, I would contest that what a religious parent teaches his/her child is not indoctrination if it refers to their own religious beliefs. I think it's absurd to believe that parents should respond to many inquisitive questions a child might ask which could involve their religious beliefs with "there are many opinions, you have to discover your own for yourself". That's the sort of attitude that totalitarian regimes looked to promote and remove children from the influence of their families. Every single person has the right to teach their children what they believe if it does not conflict with the law. I believe that atheists should be able to teach children their views. Why should an atheist be more righteous in being separate from the label of indoctrination (as you not I term it). There is no way that one can categorically deny that God exists and started the universe, even as a bland Prime Mover figure. I therefore reject the fact that scientific reason is absolute knowledge and anything which disagrees with that sphere of study is automatically nonsense. As for Dawkins' hate. I know it sounds ridiculous to you but for things that don't have a full or even partial consensus of explanation within science, I see this as a reason to at least doubt the basic existential analysis of the universe and humankind that Dawkins promotes. I'm referring to the existence of consciousness and its mysterious nature outside the non-starter explanations of neuroscience and chemical reactions. So-called miracles too which have been investigated by groups like NASA and cannot be scientifically explained. Dawkins uses probability theory that there was a 3000000000/1 chance that X might happen and on this so-called miraculous occasion it did. He relies purely on logic and sticks by it, almost admirably. The fact that there is reasonable doubt for me does not mean that people should automatically reject science and reason. On the contrary. However, what I do reject is the idea that there is not a reasonable basis, even with science and it's contributions for people to doubt it and form religious opinions even with the extent of the evolutionary and Big Bang theories out there. This a serious issue. The idea that promoting critical thinking and open mindedness is totalitarian is actually a little repellent. Also, with regards to the 'no-one can disprove it' argument, the same can be said for Leprechauns and Zeus. Still not very compelling stuff. Edited by ChuFukka (12 Jun 2015 6.13pm)
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 6.10pm | |
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Quote sa_eagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.05pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
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EaglesEaglesEagles 12 Jun 15 6.17pm | |
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Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 6.07pm
Quote EaglesEaglesEagles at 12 Jun 2015 5.53pm
Quote SirPeanut at 12 Jun 2015 5.14pm
He also hates the close minded 'non-thinking' of the average religious person and the child indoctrination that occurs in religious families. As do I. Well if you would like to stereotype religious people by saying their (non-)thinking is close minded then fine. Personally I think that labelling people casually in this way is a bit of an obstinate means of making a point, a bit like your stereotype of what you see as the average religious person actually. And as for indoctrination, I would contest that what a religious parent teaches his/her child is not indoctrination if it refers to their own religious beliefs. I think it's absurd to believe that parents should respond to many inquisitive questions a child might ask which could involve their religious beliefs with "there are many opinions, you have to discover your own for yourself". That's the sort of attitude that totalitarian regimes looked to promote and remove children from the influence of their families. Every single person has the right to teach their children what they believe if it does not conflict with the law. I believe that atheists should be able to teach children their views. Why should an atheist be more righteous in being separate from the label of indoctrination (as you not I term it). There is no way that one can categorically deny that God exists and started the universe, even as a bland Prime Mover figure. I therefore reject the fact that scientific reason is absolute knowledge and anything which disagrees with that sphere of study is automatically nonsense. As for Dawkins' hate. I know it sounds ridiculous to you but for things that don't have a full or even partial consensus of explanation within science, I see this as a reason to at least doubt the basic existential analysis of the universe and humankind that Dawkins promotes. I'm referring to the existence of consciousness and its mysterious nature outside the non-starter explanations of neuroscience and chemical reactions. So-called miracles too which have been investigated by groups like NASA and cannot be scientifically explained. Dawkins uses probability theory that there was a 3000000000/1 chance that X might happen and on this so-called miraculous occasion it did. He relies purely on logic and sticks by it, almost admirably. The fact that there is reasonable doubt for me does not mean that people should automatically reject science and reason. On the contrary. However, what I do reject is the idea that there is not a reasonable basis, even with science and it's contributions for people to doubt it and form religious opinions even with the extent of the evolutionary and Big Bang theories out there. This a serious issue. The idea that promoting critical thinking and open mindedness is totalitarian is actually a little repellent.
I see family as highly important and so to an extent does the law, which is why parents are responsible guardians for their children and make decisions for them up to a certain age. Imparting knowledge and beliefs to children is part of parenting. That can be atheistic or religious.
I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry. |
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derben 12 Jun 15 7.07pm | |
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Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote sa_eagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.05pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
Is there any documented evidence for the 'Big Bang' and that it somehow occurred spontaneously?
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 7.22pm | |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.07pm
Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote sa_eagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.05pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
Is there any documented evidence for the 'Big Bang' and that it somehow occurred spontaneously? There is plenty of scientific, empirical evidence which points to the big bang as the most likely answer to the question of origins. It is obviously a complex topic, as the universe does not owe us a simple answer (in spite of what most religions would have you believe), but the literature is out there should you choose to read it, having been compiled by some of the greatest minds our planet will likely ever see. Funny that there seems to be such a strong correlation between intelligence and acceptance of scientific truth.
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We are goin up! Coulsdon 12 Jun 15 8.00pm | |
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The guy is a grade A c*nt. He forces his opinion on others, he's no better than a Jehovah knocking on your door or one of those loud preachers in your face on Croydon High Street. F*ck him.
The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. |
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derben 12 Jun 15 8.06pm | |
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Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 7.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.07pm
Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote sa_eagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.05pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
Is there any documented evidence for the 'Big Bang' and that it somehow occurred spontaneously? There is plenty of scientific, empirical evidence which points to the big bang as the most likely answer to the question of origins. It is obviously a complex topic, as the universe does not owe us a simple answer (in spite of what most religions would have you believe), but the literature is out there should you choose to read it, having been compiled by some of the greatest minds our planet will likely ever see. Funny that there seems to be such a strong correlation between intelligence and acceptance of scientific truth. Just a bit. But it seems just as likely that some omnipotent being created it than it suddenly springing into existence of its own accord (ie: both very hard to believe).
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Mr Palaceman 12 Jun 15 8.37pm | |
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I post this simply because I have always found his arguements fundementally flawed, there are rational questions that I find he simply ignores. This is one of the better debates, IMO. But there are many.
"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead" Stan Laurel |
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 9.02pm | |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 8.06pm
Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 7.22pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 7.07pm
Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 6.10pm
Quote sa_eagle at 12 Jun 2015 6.05pm
Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. I read most of the God Delusion (gave up before the finish though). I thought his ideas were poorly argued, almost made me take religion more seriously. He's a great advert for religion as many look at him and his ilk and realise that religion is far more attractive than he is. His big failing in his arguments is that he promotes a school of neo-atheism which tends to throw the baby out with the bath water. Traditional atheism is a far more intelligent option in which rather than query clear documented historical events such as the bodily resurrection of Jesus, they would question the meaning of his resurrection. Dawkins et al will simply argue it didn't happen and some even go so far as to argue that Jesus never existed, despite the wealth of evidence to prove that he did. The other big problem with neo-atheism is that they've rarely read any theological books and as such don't actually understand the arguments they rail against. It's all to easy to dismiss God and religion as a whole if you don't understand the theological underpinnings of the concept of God and religion.
Is there any documented evidence for the 'Big Bang' and that it somehow occurred spontaneously? There is plenty of scientific, empirical evidence which points to the big bang as the most likely answer to the question of origins. It is obviously a complex topic, as the universe does not owe us a simple answer (in spite of what most religions would have you believe), but the literature is out there should you choose to read it, having been compiled by some of the greatest minds our planet will likely ever see. Funny that there seems to be such a strong correlation between intelligence and acceptance of scientific truth. Just a bit. But it seems just as likely that some omnipotent being created it than it suddenly springing into existence of its own accord (ie: both very hard to believe).
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 9.04pm | |
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Quote We are goin up! at 12 Jun 2015 8.00pm
The guy is a grade A c*nt. He forces his opinion on others, he's no better than a Jehovah knocking on your door or one of those loud preachers in your face on Croydon High Street. F*ck him.
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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Jun 15 9.07pm | |
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Quote ChuFukka at 12 Jun 2015 9.04pm
Quote We are goin up! at 12 Jun 2015 8.00pm
The guy is a grade A c*nt. He forces his opinion on others, he's no better than a Jehovah knocking on your door or one of those loud preachers in your face on Croydon High Street. F*ck him.
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