To All Who Say Criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic

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To All Who Say Criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic

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legaleagle 09 Jun 15 9.35am
Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am) Really? Why? I know he spouts some iffy views sometimes and is often called on it, but I think it's pretty clear what he's getting at in that statement, and it's not (to me, at least) at all offensive or controversial. He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b******ised extreme of the religion. Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition. Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition. He expressed the view there's not a lot of difference between being an Islamist and a muslim per se,ie all muslims are similar to Islamists. Islamism is an "extreme" political interpretationof Islam,about as relevant to muslims as a whole,as extreme zionism is to jews worldwide or the Spanish Inquisition was to catholics generally at the time. So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against. Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am)
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legaleagle

09 Jun 15 9.35am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am

More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am)

Really? Why?
I know he spouts some iffy views sometimes and is often called on it, but I think it's pretty clear what he's getting at in that statement, and it's not (to me, at least) at all offensive or controversial.

He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b******ised extreme of the religion.

Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition.

Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition.

He expressed the view there's not a lot of difference between being an Islamist and a muslim per se,ie all muslims are similar to Islamists. Islamism is an "extreme" political interpretationof Islam,about as relevant to muslims as a whole,as extreme zionism is to jews worldwide or the Spanish Inquisition was to catholics generally at the time.

So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against.

Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am)

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Mr Palaceman 09 Jun 15 9.51am
Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.22am Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 9.12am Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 8.47am Quote kenbarr at 09 Jun 2015 8.39am Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims. Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am) I'm confused. Islam and Muslim/Moslem mean the same thing. I'm hoping you mean "Islamist," which has come to mean the violent fundamentalism practiced by IS and al Qaeda among others. I maintain there are so-called fundamentalists who attach themselves to any religious faith. Actually, they really don't practice the faith but their own personal agenda of violence and hate. I'm happy to change it to 'Islamist', I don't see a lot of difference though. There's a big difference, Muslims are Islamists, they follow Islam, Islamist and extremist are two different things. If derban had said, you can be anti-Saudi Arabia without being anti-arab it might have made sense. To be fair to derben, I get what he means. It would be the same as being vehemently against the Catholic church (and let's face it, there are many reasons you might be) without having anything against Catholics themselves Fair enough, I don't think it's quite the same but we could get lost in a thread like this. "You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead" Stan Laurel
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Mr Palaceman

09 Jun 15 9.51am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.22am

Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 9.12am

Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 8.47am

Quote kenbarr at 09 Jun 2015 8.39am

Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am

Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims.

Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am)

I'm confused. Islam and Muslim/Moslem mean the same thing. I'm hoping you mean "Islamist," which has come to mean the violent fundamentalism practiced by IS and al Qaeda among others. I maintain there are so-called fundamentalists who attach themselves to any religious faith. Actually, they really don't practice the faith but their own personal agenda of violence and hate.

I'm happy to change it to 'Islamist', I don't see a lot of difference though.

There's a big difference, Muslims are Islamists, they follow Islam, Islamist and extremist are two different things.

If derban had said, you can be anti-Saudi Arabia without being anti-arab it might have made sense.

To be fair to derben, I get what he means.

It would be the same as being vehemently against the Catholic church (and let's face it, there are many reasons you might be) without having anything against Catholics themselves

Fair enough, I don't think it's quite the same but we could get lost in a thread like this.

"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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npn Crowborough 09 Jun 15 9.52am
Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.35am Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am) Really? Why? I know he spouts some iffy views sometimes and is often called on it, but I think it's pretty clear what he's getting at in that statement, and it's not (to me, at least) at all offensive or controversial. He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b******ised extreme of the religion. Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition. Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition. He expressed the view there's not a lot of difference between being an Islamist and a muslim per se,ie all muslims are similar to Islamists. Islamism is an "extreme" political interpretationof Islam,about as relevant to muslims as a whole,as extreme zionism is to jews worldwide or the Spanish Inquisition was to catholics generally at the time. So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against. Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am) I didn't get that angle at all from his comment - I read it as he dislikes the religion, but not necessarily those that follow it. Still, I may be completely misrepresenting him, it just seemed you may be playing the man, not the ball, on that particular one.
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npn

Crowborough 09 Jun 15 9.52am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.35am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am

More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am)

He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b******ised extreme of the religion.

Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition.

Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition.

So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against.

Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am)

I didn't get that angle at all from his comment - I read it as he dislikes the religion, but not necessarily those that follow it.

Still, I may be completely misrepresenting him, it just seemed you may be playing the man, not the ball, on that particular one.

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Stirlingsays 09 Jun 15 10.01am
Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example. However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is. So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great. I'm pretty much a fan of everything Jewish.....From their humour to their stereotypical work ethic and drive. They integrate completely into a culture and unlike the waffle about some that ministers sometimes put out... Jews genuinely do improve any host culture. However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine. I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts. Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jun 15 10.01am

Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example.

However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is.

So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great.

I'm pretty much a fan of everything Jewish.....From their humour to their stereotypical work ethic and drive. They integrate completely into a culture and unlike the waffle about some that ministers sometimes put out... Jews genuinely do improve any host culture.

However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine.

I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts.

Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Hoof Hearted 09 Jun 15 10.25am
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 10.01am Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example. However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is. So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great. I'm pretty much a fan of everything Jewish.....From their humour to their stereotypical work ethic and drive. They integrate completely into a culture and unlike the waffle about some that ministers sometimes put out... Jews genuinely do improve any host culture. However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine. I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts. Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am) .... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews?
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Hoof Hearted 09 Jun 15 10.25am

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 10.01am

Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example.

However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is.

So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great.

However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine.

I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts.

Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am)

.... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews?

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derben 09 Jun 15 10.31am
Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.52am Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.35am Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am) Really? Why? I know he spouts some iffy views sometimes and is often called on it, but I think it's pretty clear what he's getting at in that statement, and it's not (to me, at least) at all offensive or controversial. He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b****ised extreme of the religion. Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition. Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition. He expressed the view there's not a lot of difference between being an Islamist and a muslim per se,ie all muslims are similar to Islamists. Islamism is an "extreme" political interpretationof Islam,about as relevant to muslims as a whole,as extreme zionism is to jews worldwide or the Spanish Inquisition was to catholics generally at the time. So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against. Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se. Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am) I didn't get that angle at all from his comment - I read it as he dislikes the religion, but not necessarily those that follow it**. Still, I may be completely misrepresenting him, it just seemed you may be playing the man, not the ball, on that particular one. Thanks npn, that's exactly what I mean.
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derben

09 Jun 15 10.31am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.52am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.35am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.27am

Quote legaleagle at 09 Jun 2015 9.24am

More like equating (and tainting) all followers of Catholicism with having being believers in the benefits of the Spanish inquisition and the "civilising" mission of the conquistadores.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.25am)

He is not distinguishing between "all those who follow a particular religion" and those who profess following a particular religion but adhere to a vulgar b******ised extreme of the religion.

Thus all muslims don't equate to being followers of Salafism by something akin to definition.

Thus,all Catholics don't equate to being admirers of the extreme variant expressed in the Spanish Inquisition.

So,what he is saying is not so different to the anti-generalising and stereotyping stuff kenbarr is posting against.

Personally,I abhor salafism, Islamism etc.But, I see that adherents are not automatically similar to a follower of the muslim faith per se.

Edited by legaleagle (09 Jun 2015 9.39am)

I didn't get that angle at all from his comment - I read it as he dislikes the religion, but not necessarily those that follow it.

Still, I may be completely misrepresenting him, it just seemed you may be playing the man, not the ball, on that particular one.

Thanks npn, that's exactly what I mean.

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becky over the moon 09 Jun 15 10.31am
Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 10.01am Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example. However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is. So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great. I'm pretty much a fan of everything Jewish.....From their humour to their stereotypical work ethic and drive. They integrate completely into a culture and unlike the waffle about some that ministers sometimes put out... Jews genuinely do improve any host culture. However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine. I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts. Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am) .... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews? They support Spurs? (and forget chicken soup - have you ever tried stuffed neck? Mmmmmmmmmmmm!) A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 09 Jun 15 10.31am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 10.01am

Every group has its extreme elements, even the white majority culture here has its white supremacists for example.

However, what matters is the numbers of radicals to moderates within any group and how 'useful' and integrated and progressive to western values the majority moderate culture is.

So when I gauge the British Jewish community up against these values or indeed most Jews around the world I come to the conclusion that they are...in general great.

However, their current government in Israel is an example of a closed mind to peace and one which is determined to slowly push the Palestinian out of Palestine.

I believe it isn't anti semitic to criticise the Israeli government when it commits terrible acts.

Still, I do believe that regularly amongst the left and even occasionally on the right you get many who go further than this and at least to a degree display a anti semitic nature.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 10.02am)

.... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews?

They support Spurs?

(and forget chicken soup - have you ever tried stuffed neck? Mmmmmmmmmmmm!)

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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derben 09 Jun 15 10.41am
Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 8.40am Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims. Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am) I understand the anti-Israel/Semitic bit but how can you be anti a way of life but not anti to those who live by it? That's like someone saying they are anti-Zionism but not anti-Zionist... Most Jews, certainly those in Israel are Zionists, so by your logic being anti-Zionist is being anti-Jewish.
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derben

09 Jun 15 10.41am

Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 8.40am

Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am

Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims.

Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am)

I understand the anti-Israel/Semitic bit but how can you be anti a way of life but not anti to those who live by it?

That's like someone saying they are anti-Zionism but not anti-Zionist...

Most Jews, certainly those in Israel are Zionists, so by your logic being anti-Zionist is being anti-Jewish.

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Stirlingsays 09 Jun 15 11.24am
Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am .... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews? 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jun 15 11.24am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am

.... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews?

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 09 Jun 15 11.36am
I find nothing wrong with the concept of Jewish nationalism or as its called Zionism. However, like most things it all comes down to what you believe nationalism really means. Do we support a Jewish state......Yes, while recognising that how it came about wasn't fair or ideal. That I suppose is supporting Zionism within limits. Do we support a Jewish state that basically ethically cleanses Palestinians from Palestine until essentially Palestine is Israel....No. Basically there's nothing wrong with moderate nationalism....Hell for a state to survive it's essential. Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 12.05pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

09 Jun 15 11.36am

I find nothing wrong with the concept of Jewish nationalism or as its called Zionism.

However, like most things it all comes down to what you believe nationalism really means.

Do we support a Jewish state......Yes, while recognising that how it came about wasn't fair or ideal. That I suppose is supporting Zionism within limits.

Do we support a Jewish state that basically ethically cleanses Palestinians from Palestine until essentially Palestine is Israel....No.

Basically there's nothing wrong with moderate nationalism....Hell for a state to survive it's essential.

Edited by Stirlingsays (09 Jun 2015 12.05pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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TheJudge 09 Jun 15 11.48am
Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.22am Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 9.12am Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 8.47am Quote kenbarr at 09 Jun 2015 8.39am Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic. Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims. Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am) I'm confused. Islam and Muslim/Moslem mean the same thing. I'm hoping you mean "Islamist," which has come to mean the violent fundamentalism practiced by IS and al Qaeda among others. I maintain there are so-called fundamentalists who attach themselves to any religious faith. Actually, they really don't practice the faith but their own personal agenda of violence and hate. I'm happy to change it to 'Islamist', I don't see a lot of difference though. There's a big difference, Muslims are Islamists, they follow Islam, Islamist and extremist are two different things. If derban had said, you can be anti-Saudi Arabia without being anti-arab it might have made sense. To be fair to derben, I get what he means. It would be the same as being vehemently against the Catholic church (and let's face it, there are many reasons you might be) without having anything against Catholics themselves Oh my, I think they are finally beginning to understand..... (he said in non descript character)
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TheJudge

09 Jun 15 11.48am

Quote npn at 09 Jun 2015 9.22am

Quote Mr Palaceman at 09 Jun 2015 9.12am

Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 8.47am

Quote kenbarr at 09 Jun 2015 8.39am

Quote derben at 09 Jun 2015 6.56am

Obviously you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly you can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslims.

Edited by derben (09 Jun 2015 7.06am)

I'm happy to change it to 'Islamist', I don't see a lot of difference though.

There's a big difference, Muslims are Islamists, they follow Islam, Islamist and extremist are two different things.

If derban had said, you can be anti-Saudi Arabia without being anti-arab it might have made sense.

To be fair to derben, I get what he means.

It would be the same as being vehemently against the Catholic church (and let's face it, there are many reasons you might be) without having anything against Catholics themselves

Oh my, I think they are finally beginning to understand..... (he said in non descript character)

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kenbarr Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 09 Jun 15 11.51am
Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 11.24am Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am .... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews? That's Jewish Penicillin especially if a Matzo Ball is added. Cures whatever ails you! From to Divorced...And LOVING it! VJRAM Rev. CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach Trevor Francis, International PRAT
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kenbarr

Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 09 Jun 15 11.51am

Quote Stirlingsays at 09 Jun 2015 11.24am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 09 Jun 2015 10.25am

.... and they make a great chicken soup.... what's not to like about the Jews?

That's Jewish Penicillin especially if a Matzo Ball is added. Cures whatever ails you! From to

Divorced...And LOVING it!
VJRAM Rev.
CPFC since Boxing Day 1989 CPFC 2-2 CFC
Gregg Berhalter, US International & USMNT Head Coach
Jill Ellis, England International & Retired USWNT Head Coach
Trevor Francis, International PRAT

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