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'Harmless'

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ghosteagle Flag 17 Feb 15 3.18pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Prohibition, still a stupid idea all these years later.

 

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Seth Flag On a pale blue dot 17 Feb 15 3.23pm Send a Private Message to Seth Add Seth as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 1.17pm

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.32am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.51am

I could live with them legalizing all drugs....But as long as the state takes a position.


Yes, if the state's position is evidence-based, focused on regulation, quality control and harm reduction, then I totally agree.


'Evidence based'....Whose's evidecne? Different sets of evidence will show different things. Which set of evidence is accurate? You get your pick you gets your choice.

'focused on regulation, quality control'......Why do you think that regulating the distribution of drugs means that the black market won't undercut it?

What makes you believe that we won't continue to have the same problem? All you are doing is driving down the price.....The racket still continues unless you make it practically free....Just because the official stuff is safer it doesn't mean that a significant number of people will continue to use either cheaper non regulated drugs or something more dangerous.

'Harm reduction'.....That also depends upon a definition....If you increase the number of users by legalising then you might be increasing the harm overall but just making it safer for those whose more committed drug takers.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 1.18pm)


I think my statement speaks for itself. I'm not going to get into a point-by-point debate with you, but look at what's happening in the US to see where we should be going. As far as I can tell the sky hasn't fallen in over Colorado as yet, so we may for once have something to learn from US drug law reform.

 


"You can feel the stadium jumping. The stadium is actually physically moving up and down"
FA Cup MOTD 24/4/16

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Stirlingsays Flag 17 Feb 15 3.28pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 3.23pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 1.17pm

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.32am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.51am

I could live with them legalizing all drugs....But as long as the state takes a position.


Yes, if the state's position is evidence-based, focused on regulation, quality control and harm reduction, then I totally agree.


'Evidence based'....Whose's evidecne? Different sets of evidence will show different things. Which set of evidence is accurate? You get your pick you gets your choice.

'focused on regulation, quality control'......Why do you think that regulating the distribution of drugs means that the black market won't undercut it?

What makes you believe that we won't continue to have the same problem? All you are doing is driving down the price.....The racket still continues unless you make it practically free....Just because the official stuff is safer it doesn't mean that a significant number of people will continue to use either cheaper non regulated drugs or something more dangerous.

'Harm reduction'.....That also depends upon a definition....If you increase the number of users by legalising then you might be increasing the harm overall but just making it safer for those whose more committed drug takers.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 1.18pm)


I think my statement speaks for itself. I'm not going to get into a point-by-point debate with you, but look at what's happening in the US to see where we should be going. As far as I can tell the sky hasn't fallen in over Colorado as yet, so we may for once have something to learn from US drug law reform.


Yup....I could live with legalization....I just don't think it's the better option of the three available.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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dannyb1 Flag Chichester 17 Feb 15 3.44pm Send a Private Message to dannyb1 Add dannyb1 as a friend

"Skunk cannabis" I'm sorry but this is how out of touch the media/poloticians/researchers are to the truth, Skunk was a breed of cannabis many years ago which overtime has been crossed with other variants of the cannabis family (indica, sative, ruderalis) to which makes up a small preportion of what is available to buy.
Here is a background on skunk#1 [Link]


Those who reported smoking milder forms of the drug, such as hash,
that's because most of the hash in this country is laced with rubber, cling film, tar, etc etc if it were to be produced untouched it would have the same charecteristics as the plant it has been extracted from

did not appear to be at increased risk,
In fact the hash they refer too is probably more dangerous long term

for instance. Murray said that, in line with this finding, he recommends hash to patients who are struggling to give up smoking altogether.
This in itself is a ridiculous statemen

Murray added that, since 2011 when the study ended, cannabis has generally been increasing in potency,
Correct
with synthetic varieties such as “Spice” having been linked to acute episodes of psychosis
synthetic varieties - who knows what other compounds have been added to this to get round the loophole of criminalising it's natural form, it's the increased risk of kids turning to this stuff which is a far greater risk to mental health

This article was modified on 16 February 2015
6 years of study left untouched for 4 years yet modified in a day in the run up to a general election, ta dah reafer madness is making a comeback. lets look at the US and start taking decriminilization seriously as the only harm it does in the long run is - line the pockets of criminals when it could be regulated, taxed and the money generated to fix our crumbling economy.
take important police time away from dealing with someone with a bit of cannabis on them for personal use when they could be stopping a more serious crime and also freeing up prison spaces for more hardened criminals,
The money be used to educate better the effects of cannabis use so it then is seen as a health issue like alcahol/tobbaco.

to make clear that the study found skunk use was responsible for a quarter of new cases of psychosis in the population in south London that the researchers looked at
410 patients, so that's around 130 so three quarters were of natural progression so what is this really showing you? as been said that the national statistics of mental health problems has never risen although cannabis consumption has.

– not across the country as a whole.
Would be a better indicator if you're going to spurt mistruths about cannabis

Edited by dannyb1 (17 Feb 2015 3.47pm)

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 17 Feb 15 10.59pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 3.28pm

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 3.23pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 1.17pm

Quote Seth at 17 Feb 2015 1.32am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 12.51am

I could live with them legalizing all drugs....But as long as the state takes a position.


Yes, if the state's position is evidence-based, focused on regulation, quality control and harm reduction, then I totally agree.


'Evidence based'....Whose's evidecne? Different sets of evidence will show different things. Which set of evidence is accurate? You get your pick you gets your choice.

'focused on regulation, quality control'......Why do you think that regulating the distribution of drugs means that the black market won't undercut it?

What makes you believe that we won't continue to have the same problem? All you are doing is driving down the price.....The racket still continues unless you make it practically free....Just because the official stuff is safer it doesn't mean that a significant number of people will continue to use either cheaper non regulated drugs or something more dangerous.

'Harm reduction'.....That also depends upon a definition....If you increase the number of users by legalising then you might be increasing the harm overall but just making it safer for those whose more committed drug takers.

Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2015 1.18pm)


I think my statement speaks for itself. I'm not going to get into a point-by-point debate with you, but look at what's happening in the US to see where we should be going. As far as I can tell the sky hasn't fallen in over Colorado as yet, so we may for once have something to learn from US drug law reform.


Yup....I could live with legalization....I just don't think it's the better option of the three available.

I don't generally think full legalisation is acceptable or responsible, some kind of limited licence availability, similar to alcohol or tabbacco makes more sense.

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Stirlingsays Flag 17 Feb 15 11.12pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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matt_himself Flag Matataland 18 Feb 15 5.39am Send a Private Message to matt_himself Add matt_himself as a friend

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.12pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

The hippies think they can create a utopia by legalising it.

The nuances of how such a system would actually operate are lost on them.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Feb 15 9.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.12pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

Market Control - The production of drugs, recreational of all kind in the UK is controlled through license to produce for market. Under any system of production the capacity to produce is driven by the ability to produce in bulk, at low cost.

Under the licence and laws of the production of alcohol the supply of bootleg illegally produced alcohol in the UK is largely non-existent - Simply because production on a sufficient scale to compete with legal production is not financially viable.

Supply - Slightly harder to control, however, the capacity for the control of price, makes the possibility of competition non-existent. The price of even common recreational drugs is driven by the illegal market. Cannabis is a remarkably cheap drug to produce, and yet the retail price on a 1/8th is around twenty quid, simply because of the mark up, of around 500% that occurs in the supply model.

The simple fact is that the illegal market simply couldn't compete with a legal one (exactly the same way it couldn't with prohibition). Organised crime gangs would simply be priced out of the production and supply, because they can't compete in production, distribution or supply.

This applies to all recreational drugs, which when produced legally (for research and medical use) retail to the end supplier at 1/35th of the price of the black market, unadulterated). Simply put organised crime can't operate at that competition level, other than to sell very low quality product. That leaves plenty of room for revenue generation through taxation and profit.

Criminal element - Essentially why would you buy from a criminal source, when you can obtain from a legal source for less and at better quality? You wouldn't. That wouldn't end crime, it would however mean that certain very lucrative avenues of crime were unavailable. Ending prohibition didn't end the American Mafia, but it did massively reduce the violence and how that crime impacted general society.

Similarly, the same could be said of the UK. The drug market is worth a fortune to organised crime and it generates a huge amount of crime to firstly control it, and then secondly through the cost of drugs (ie of addicts to obtain drugs through shoplifting, burglary, prostution).

A legal market could sell the same gram of heroin that costs 80 quid on the street, at profit, for the price of a packet of cigerettes, unadulterated. Meaning that an addict with a two gram a day habit, is having to find 12 quid, rather than 160 quid a day to maintain their habit.

In order to obtain that 160 quid through crime, generally you'll need to commit at least 480 worth of crime. Where as finding 12 quid could be as simple as working a part time job, or at worst committing 36 pounds worth of crime.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 18 Feb 15 9.46am

Quote matt_himself at 18 Feb 2015 5.39am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.12pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

The hippies think they can create a utopia by legalising it.

The nuances of how such a system would actually operate are lost on them.

Only very stupid people talk about utopia.

Systems of operation and outlets already exist, they're called pharmacies. And all of these drugs are currently produced under licence in the UK for research or medical use.

Cocaine is an analogue of the drug Lidocanine which is used for local anaesthesia. Producers of lidocaine also produce synthetic cocaine for research and occasional medical use.

Heroin is produced for market to the NHS as diamorphine one of the most commonly used painkillers in the british health system.

Amphetamine - Currently amphetamines are produced for Research and medical use (Narcolepsy, ADHD and last resort anti-depressants). These are Dexedrine, benzodrine and methedrine. Ritilin, a amphetamine based drug is used in the treatement of ADHD.

Cannabis, Esctasy and LSD are currently produced for research.


 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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ghosteagle Flag 18 Feb 15 3.39pm Send a Private Message to ghosteagle Add ghosteagle as a friend

Quote matt_himself at 18 Feb 2015 5.39am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.12pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

The hippies think they can create a utopia by legalising it.

The nuances of how such a system would actually operate are lost on them.


Hippies are a blight upon the Earth, although legalising it is the right thing to do.

 

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dannyb1 Flag Chichester 18 Feb 15 3.53pm Send a Private Message to dannyb1 Add dannyb1 as a friend

Quote jamiemartin721 at 18 Feb 2015 9.40am

Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Feb 2015 11.12pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 17 Feb 2015 10.59pm

Control of the market, control of the supply, and eradication of the criminal element.


You can't control the market or the supply....You can only introduce an official market and supply.

You can't eradicate the criminal element....That's unrealistic.

Market Control - The production of drugs, recreational of all kind in the UK is controlled through license to produce for market. Under any system of production the capacity to produce is driven by the ability to produce in bulk, at low cost.

Under the licence and laws of the production of alcohol the supply of bootleg illegally produced alcohol in the UK is largely non-existent - Simply because production on a sufficient scale to compete with legal production is not financially viable.

Supply - Slightly harder to control, however, the capacity for the control of price, makes the possibility of competition non-existent. The price of even common recreational drugs is driven by the illegal market. Cannabis is a remarkably cheap drug to produce, and yet the retail price on a 1/8th is around twenty quid, simply because of the mark up, of around 500% that occurs in the supply model.

The simple fact is that the illegal market simply couldn't compete with a legal one (exactly the same way it couldn't with prohibition). Organised crime gangs would simply be priced out of the production and supply, because they can't compete in production, distribution or supply.

This applies to all recreational drugs, which when produced legally (for research and medical use) retail to the end supplier at 1/35th of the price of the black market, unadulterated). Simply put organised crime can't operate at that competition level, other than to sell very low quality product. That leaves plenty of room for revenue generation through taxation and profit.

Criminal element - Essentially why would you buy from a criminal source, when you can obtain from a legal source for less and at better quality? You wouldn't. That wouldn't end crime, it would however mean that certain very lucrative avenues of crime were unavailable. Ending prohibition didn't end the American Mafia, but it did massively reduce the violence and how that crime impacted general society.

Similarly, the same could be said of the UK. The drug market is worth a fortune to organised crime and it generates a huge amount of crime to firstly control it, and then secondly through the cost of drugs (ie of addicts to obtain drugs through shoplifting, burglary, prostution).

A legal market could sell the same gram of heroin that costs 80 quid on the street, at profit, for the price of a packet of cigerettes, unadulterated. Meaning that an addict with a two gram a day habit, is having to find 12 quid, rather than 160 quid a day to maintain their habit.

In order to obtain that 160 quid through crime, generally you'll need to commit at least 480 worth of crime. Where as finding 12 quid could be as simple as working a part time job, or at worst committing 36 pounds worth of crime.



Show me where you can get 1/8th (3.5g)for a score as at the moment it's anything between 1g - 0.85g for £10 making it more valuable then gold (9ct the last i see was £8 per gramme).

 

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dannyb1 Flag Chichester 18 Feb 15 3.56pm Send a Private Message to dannyb1 Add dannyb1 as a friend

I love the argument that it's mad hippies that smoke cannabis, you would be surprised and shocked at the level in society of a cannabis user. (doctors, police, lawyers)

 

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