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House of Commons Attack
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.TUX.  27 Mar 17 10.35am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Probably because if you don't make a show of it, the same people who criticise you for 'standing on a bridge' will condemn you for not 'condemning the attack'. Many would be far more impressed if they ''made of show of it'' a bit closer to home.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 10.43am |
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Originally posted by .TUX.
Many would be far more impressed if they ''made of show of it'' a bit closer to home. If they did, would you know? After all several hundred people each doing something within their community isn't going to get any coverage. This affects both their community and others. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt that by speaking up and making a point of their feelings, they're also affecting their own community. Its easy to just dismiss when it fits our accepted world view, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt. When did we last protest an air strike by the UK that killed innocent civilians?
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 Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 10.46am |
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I don't think anyone needs reminding that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, even if their religion can be problematical. However just as this point is valid and can be made. It point should also be made that significant numbers within the Islamic community...even within this country hold terrible views on many mainstream values. This is a problem....and it is a problem that too few are willing to address. But it's a problem within its context....no one is bothered with troubling the peaceful who keep themselves to themselves. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Mar 2017 10.47am)
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| Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 10.49am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
If they did, would you know? After all several hundred people each doing something within their community isn't going to get any coverage. This affects both their community and others. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt that by speaking up and making a point of their feelings, they're also affecting their own community. Its easy to just dismiss when it fits our accepted world view, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt. When did we last protest an air strike by the UK that killed innocent civilians? The UK does not intend to kill innocent civilians. This guy did. That is making murder the same as manslaughter. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Mar 2017 10.51am)
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pefwin  Where you have to have an English ... 27 Mar 17 10.54am |
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Obviously, never had a Date.
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| .TUX. 27 Mar 17 10.57am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
If they did, would you know? After all several hundred people each doing something within their community isn't going to get any coverage. This affects both their community and others. Maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt that by speaking up and making a point of their feelings, they're also affecting their own community. Its easy to just dismiss when it fits our accepted world view, but we should give them the benefit of the doubt. When did we last protest an air strike by the UK that killed innocent civilians? If the camera used to film them on a bridge was used to film them in the community then yes, i guess i would.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 27 Mar 17 10.58am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The UK does not intend to kill innocent civilians. This guy did. That is making murder the same as manslaughter. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Mar 2017 10.51am) If you take part in an operation that bombs a building to take out terrorists and 50 innocent civilians die that is cold-blooded murder. Regards.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 11.00am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The UK does not intend to kill innocent civilians. This guy did. That is making murder the same as manslaughter. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Mar 2017 10.51am) Yeah, until you start to look at the list of 'legitimate military targets' for airstrikes, and then you realise, that whilst they don't 'intend to kill innocent civilians', their actions invariably include strikes on civilian infrastructure that will result in civilians casualties as they're 'supportive to a war effort or military objectives / logistics'. We can fool ourselves into thinking UK airstrikes aren't aimed at innocent civilians, because we just use a broad target. But roads, bridges, factories, warehouses, ports, airports, broadcasting stations, power stations, government infrastructure sites, communications centres, non-military fuel depots, air control stations and so on are all staffed, used and operated by civilians. This goes beyond 'targeted strikes' against 'known terrorists'.
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| Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 11.02am |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
If you take part in an operation that bombs a building to take out terrorists and 50 innocent civilians die that is cold-blooded murder. Regards. Murder requires intent. So no it isn't. It's a terrible thing but it's manslaughter. That doesn't make it acceptable or ok.
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| Stirlingsays 27 Mar 17 11.06am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Yeah, until you start to look at the list of 'legitimate military targets' for airstrikes, and then you realise, that whilst they don't 'intend to kill innocent civilians', their actions invariably include strikes on civilian infrastructure that will result in civilians casualties as they're 'supportive to a war effort or military objectives / logistics'. We can fool ourselves into thinking UK airstrikes aren't aimed at innocent civilians, because we just use a broad target. But roads, bridges, factories, warehouses, ports, airports, broadcasting stations, power stations, government infrastructure sites, communications centres, non-military fuel depots, air control stations and so on are all staffed, used and operated by civilians. This goes beyond 'targeted strikes' against 'known terrorists'. I agree, but it is still not intentional murder of civilians. Civilians are warned prior to these attacks to get out if they can and that's pretty much the best that can be done. So Jamie, how does Iraq take back its cities?
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| steeleye20 Croydon 27 Mar 17 11.35am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Murder requires intent. So no it isn't. It's a terrible thing but it's manslaughter. That doesn't make it acceptable or ok. No if you aim a bomb at a block of flats you are murdering the people inside it is premeditated as you targeted it. A reasonable view of anyone would be that there may be people living in it you knew what the outcome could be and are responsible for your actions. Should be shot as an example but in reality will be protected and given counselling. See your point
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Mar 17 11.36am |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I agree, but it is still not intentional murder of civilians. Civilians are warned prior to these attacks to get out if they can and that's pretty much the best that can be done. So Jamie, how does Iraq take back its cities? Its not really the point I was getting at. Its more that we also complicity accept the killing of civilians, even if we do try not to - and that as a result whilst we're not the same as ISIS, we're not entirely guilt free when it comes to complaining about how people protest the actions of a community. i.e. Complaining that a group could do more, or differently, when we ourselves sit quite complicity quiet at the actions conducted in our name. Its not really as a defence of terrorism or warfare, but that maybe we shouldn't be dismissive of others from a moral high ground we do not hold.
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