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Johnny Eagles berlin 08 May 14 3.21pm
Good, thought-provoking post, ST. I wonder whether the immigration thing will ultimately come back to haunt them. Whether UKIP are racist or not (I'm sure that most, including Farage, genuinely aren't) it will invariably attract the minority of people in society who are. UKIP might have been wiser (if albeit less popular in the short-term) if they had stuck to the more purist policies on leaving the EU. As for the dehumanising thing, IMO all political parties AND news media are guilty of that. It's the McKinseyisation of politics; the reduction of people to numbers in a chart about GDP statistics or focus groups. I think the cause of this is the fact that the Political Class lives increasingly in its own little world. Ironically, voting UKIP is actually an attack on this tendency - or at least in my view it is. ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 08 May 14 3.21pm

Good, thought-provoking post, ST.

I wonder whether the immigration thing will ultimately come back to haunt them. Whether UKIP are racist or not (I'm sure that most, including Farage, genuinely aren't) it will invariably attract the minority of people in society who are.

UKIP might have been wiser (if albeit less popular in the short-term) if they had stuck to the more purist policies on leaving the EU.

As for the dehumanising thing, IMO all political parties AND news media are guilty of that. It's the McKinseyisation of politics; the reduction of people to numbers in a chart about GDP statistics or focus groups.

I think the cause of this is the fact that the Political Class lives increasingly in its own little world. Ironically, voting UKIP is actually an attack on this tendency - or at least in my view it is.

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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Hoof Hearted 08 May 14 3.34pm
My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs. We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure. We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have. Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it. I dread to think what Britain will be like to live in in 50 years time just based on an average growth of the population here now. Add in further migrants and their future families and it equates to bedlam and I for one will be glad not to have to experience it.
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Hoof Hearted 08 May 14 3.34pm

My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs.

We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure.

We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have.

Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it.

I dread to think what Britain will be like to live in in 50 years time just based on an average growth of the population here now. Add in further migrants and their future families and it equates to bedlam and I for one will be glad not to have to experience it.

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serial thriller The Promised Land 08 May 14 3.50pm
Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 May 2014 3.34pm My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs. We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure. We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have. Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it. I dread to think what Britain will be like to live in in 50 years time just based on an average growth of the population here now. Add in further migrants and their future families and it equates to bedlam and I for one will be glad not to have to experience it. I'm not going to argue with you Hoof. This may be a pretty interesting read to address your concerns with overpopulation though... [Link] If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4
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serial thriller

The Promised Land 08 May 14 3.50pm

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Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 May 2014 3.34pm

My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs.

We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure.

We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have.

Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it.

I'm not going to argue with you Hoof. This may be a pretty interesting read to address your concerns with overpopulation though...

[Link]

If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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Hoof Hearted 08 May 14 3.56pm
Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 3.50pm Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 May 2014 3.34pm My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs. We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure. We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have. Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it. I dread to think what Britain will be like to live in in 50 years time just based on an average growth of the population here now. Add in further migrants and their future families and it equates to bedlam and I for one will be glad not to have to experience it. I'm not going to argue with you Hoof. This may be a pretty interesting read to address your concerns with overpopulation though... [Link] That was far too long and highbrow to keep my attention for long. I skimmed it and did not see any answers to how you feel about waiting 3 weeks to see the doctor, or being stuck for 8 hours on the M25, building on flood plains, etc etc.
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Hoof Hearted 08 May 14 3.56pm

Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 3.50pm

Quote Hoof Hearted at 08 May 2014 3.34pm

My worry isn't about the immigrants nicking jobs.

We simply cannot cope with the population we have here already, and clearly every single person that turns up here puts more strain on our infrastructure.

We cannot go on accepting more and more people however nice, hardworking, reliable, funloving or other creditable attributes they may have.

Sadly UKIP have had to resort to talking tough to get people to listen and then do something about it.

I'm not going to argue with you Hoof. This may be a pretty interesting read to address your concerns with overpopulation though...

[Link]

That was far too long and highbrow to keep my attention for long.

I skimmed it and did not see any answers to how you feel about waiting 3 weeks to see the doctor, or being stuck for 8 hours on the M25, building on flood plains, etc etc.

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matt_himself Matataland 08 May 14 3.56pm
Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 2.57pm I know I'm not gonna convince a lot of you to not vote for UKIP in this post but this has been playing around in my mind for the past few days and I feel the need to put it down in writing. Normally I'm a killer for facts but I don't think there's any use in trying to argue with UKIP on a factual level, quite simply because it hasn't worked. I don't necessarily think that UKIP are a racist party, but I do think that they are ideologically misguided. Because what they do is illogical and demonising. What they do is to take a fact, say, that there are immigrants who live in this country who don't work, or don't speak the language. Even as an ardent lefty I don't dispute that this is the case. But with that fact, they use it as sole and exclusive rationale for demonising and castigating these individuals of society. They're not interested in the people themselves; there is no empathetic tone in which they actually regard them as human beings, with reasons for their social situation, with responsibilities and difficulties that place them in that unwanted position. They are merely an unwanted figure, that must be mercilessly taken out of the equation. And it's this lack of viewing human beings as actual human beings - living, caring, unfortunate creatures - that winds me up. Instead they are reduced to a sort of caricatured number on a sheet, proof of and intrinsic solution to our social issues, and most of all a threat to YOUR lifestyle. That's why when I walk down a street and see a poster saying ' 260 million European unemployed want YOUR jobs' I can't help but despair. In a previous world we may have had a bit of sympathy for those unfortunate enough not to have a job. Nowadays we just see them as a threat and a scourge on society. Whatever happened to 'love your neighbour'? It is the divisive tactics of targeting the very lowest in society that was previously only a tactic of the far right, but now seems to have ingratiated itself in to mainstream politics. We don't seem to think how we can help people nowadays, more how we can deal with them. And UKIP are the major culprits of this. Edited by serial thriller (08 May 2014 3.00pm) Whilst I believe that you believe what you are saying, this sort of moral high ground posturing is divisive and patronising. You are completely missing the point of why UKIP is attracting support. It is because of he huge changes that have been forced upon people in this country without their consultation - the EU, the left's multicultural project of the past fifty years, the changes in social and work conditions and the erosion of civic responsibilities. People are fed up with being told to do things and told they are bad people if they don't simply agree with whatever agenda is forced upon them. This country is creaking because of uncontrolled immigration. Hospitals, schools, housing and other services are full up and there is little money to increase facilities. No one in UKIP is saying no immigration, they want a new process in place and a debate about it. I believe that the British people are some of the most welcoming of immigrants in the World, so would ask that you don't confuse the desire for a debate on the subject as hostility. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 08 May 14 3.56pm

Quote serial thriller at 08 May 2014 2.57pm

I know I'm not gonna convince a lot of you to not vote for UKIP in this post but this has been playing around in my mind for the past few days and I feel the need to put it down in writing.

Normally I'm a killer for facts but I don't think there's any use in trying to argue with UKIP on a factual level, quite simply because it hasn't worked. I don't necessarily think that UKIP are a racist party, but I do think that they are ideologically misguided. Because what they do is illogical and demonising. What they do is to take a fact, say, that there are immigrants who live in this country who don't work, or don't speak the language. Even as an ardent lefty I don't dispute that this is the case. But with that fact, they use it as sole and exclusive rationale for demonising and castigating these individuals of society. They're not interested in the people themselves; there is no empathetic tone in which they actually regard them as human beings, with reasons for their social situation, with responsibilities and difficulties that place them in that unwanted position. They are merely an unwanted figure, that must be mercilessly taken out of the equation.

And it's this lack of viewing human beings as actual human beings - living, caring, unfortunate creatures - that winds me up. Instead they are reduced to a sort of caricatured number on a sheet, proof of and intrinsic solution to our social issues, and most of all a threat to YOUR lifestyle. That's why when I walk down a street and see a poster saying ' 260 million European unemployed want YOUR jobs' I can't help but despair. In a previous world we may have had a bit of sympathy for those unfortunate enough not to have a job. Nowadays we just see them as a threat and a scourge on society. Whatever happened to 'love your neighbour'? It is the divisive tactics of targeting the very lowest in society that was previously only a tactic of the far right, but now seems to have ingratiated itself in to mainstream politics.

We don't seem to think how we can help people nowadays, more how we can deal with them. And UKIP are the major culprits of this.

Edited by serial thriller (08 May 2014 3.00pm)

Whilst I believe that you believe what you are saying, this sort of moral high ground posturing is divisive and patronising.

You are completely missing the point of why UKIP is attracting support. It is because of he huge changes that have been forced upon people in this country without their consultation - the EU, the left's multicultural project of the past fifty years, the changes in social and work conditions and the erosion of civic responsibilities. People are fed up with being told to do things and told they are bad people if they don't simply agree with whatever agenda is forced upon them.

This country is creaking because of uncontrolled immigration. Hospitals, schools, housing and other services are full up and there is little money to increase facilities. No one in UKIP is saying no immigration, they want a new process in place and a debate about it. I believe that the British people are some of the most welcoming of immigrants in the World, so would ask that you don't confuse the desire for a debate on the subject as hostility.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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Penge Eagle Beckenham 08 May 14 5.16pm
Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either. Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge... Yep, definitely. My ward is Labour but I do think that UKIP could take them on and win in the area. Will be interesting to find out... however, UKIP have me and my family's votes. They resonate with the 'man on the street'.
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Penge Eagle

Beckenham 08 May 14 5.16pm

Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am

Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm

I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either.

Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge...

Yep, definitely. My ward is Labour but I do think that UKIP could take them on and win in the area. Will be interesting to find out... however, UKIP have me and my family's votes. They resonate with the 'man on the street'.

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The White Horse 08 May 14 5.33pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 08 May 2014 5.16pm Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either. Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge... Yep, definitely. My ward is Labour but I do think that UKIP could take them on and win in the area. Will be interesting to find out... however, UKIP have me and my family's votes. They resonate with the 'man on the street'. My money's on the Labour councillors there winning with an increased majority because the Tory vote is split. As I understand it, they connect with the man on a street once a month on a Saturday by standing on the street opposite a pub just off the high street. "The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee
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The White Horse

08 May 14 5.33pm

Send a Private Message to The White Horse

Quote Penge Eagle at 08 May 2014 5.16pm

Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am

Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm

I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either.

Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge...

My money's on the Labour councillors there winning with an increased majority because the Tory vote is split. As I understand it, they connect with the man on a street once a month on a Saturday by standing on the street opposite a pub just off the high street.

"The fox has his den. The bee has his hive. The stoat, has, uh... his stoat-hole... but only man chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity.” Stewart Lee

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DanH SW2 08 May 14 6.04pm
Quote Penge Eagle at 08 May 2014 5.16pm Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either. Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge... Yep, definitely. My ward is Labour but I do think that UKIP could take them on and win in the area. Will be interesting to find out... however, UKIP have me and my family's votes. They resonate with the 'man on the street'. Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota.
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DanH

SW2 08 May 14 6.04pm

Quote Penge Eagle at 08 May 2014 5.16pm

Quote The White Horse at 08 May 2014 2.05am

Quote Penge Eagle at 07 May 2014 11.06pm

I shall be voting UKIP and not as a protest vote either.

Will you also be doing so in the local elections? Presumably you've got Labour councillors who can only be beaten by Tories if you live in Penge...

Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota.

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 08 May 14 6.14pm
Quote DanH at 08 May 2014 6.04pm Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota. UKIP can spout all the populist polices they like to try and 'Resonate' with the electorate to try and attract votes knowing full well they will never be in Government to fulfil them.In terms of the EU elections they want you to vote for them, they want to win which will mean more of their MEPs into the EU Parliament, a Parliament which they despise ! They want out of Europe yet they are happy to have more MEPs in it !It all seems rather odd to me ! Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.16pm)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 08 May 14 6.14pm

Quote DanH at 08 May 2014 6.04pm

Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota.

UKIP can spout all the populist polices they like to try and 'Resonate' with the electorate to try and attract votes knowing full well they will never be in Government to fulfil them.In terms of the EU elections they want you to vote for them, they want to win which will mean more of their MEPs into the EU Parliament, a Parliament which they despise ! They want out of Europe yet they are happy to have more MEPs in it !It all seems rather odd to me !

Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.16pm)

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Johnny Eagles berlin 08 May 14 6.22pm
Quote Willo at 08 May 2014 6.14pm Quote DanH at 08 May 2014 6.04pm Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota. UKIP can spout all the populist polices they like to try and 'Resonate' with the electorate to try and attract votes knowing full well they will never be in Government to fulfil them.In terms of the EU elections they want you to vote for them, they want to win which will mean more of their MEPs into the EU Parliament, a Parliament which they despise ! They want out of Europe yet they are happy to have more MEPs in it !It all seems rather odd to me ! Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.16pm) What's wrong with being in a parliament you despise? Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists have done it. Or would you rather they resorted to Ukrainian-style revolution? Matt_Himself has summed it up perfectly. People are fed up with the right-on smug metropolitan cnts who have spent decades running the country and have royally fcked lots of it up. ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 08 May 14 6.22pm

Quote Willo at 08 May 2014 6.14pm

Quote DanH at 08 May 2014 6.04pm

Which street is this? I spend a fair bit of time on streets and they don't resonate with me one iota.

Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.16pm)

What's wrong with being in a parliament you despise?

Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists have done it. Or would you rather they resorted to Ukrainian-style revolution?

Matt_Himself has summed it up perfectly. People are fed up with the right-on smug metropolitan c*nts who have spent decades running the country and have royally f*cked lots of it up.

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 May 14 6.29pm
Johnny Eagles in Thatcher was a smug right on metropolitan c*** shocker! Edited by nickgusset (08 May 2014 6.30pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 08 May 14 6.29pm

Johnny Eagles in Thatcher was a smug right on metropolitan c*** shocker!

Edited by nickgusset (08 May 2014 6.30pm)

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Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 08 May 14 6.31pm
Quote Johnny Eagles at 08 May 2014 6.22pm What's wrong with being in a parliament you despise? Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists have done it. I am not swayed away from my thinking on the basis that the Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists are in their respective Parliaments. At the end of the day UKIP will never form a Government and are in NO position to offer the country a referendum.They want OUT and it is only the Conservatives who will offer the electorate an opportunity to make that decision.And of course UKIP have played NO part whatsoever in the recovery ! I can only re-iterate that UKIP can spout all populist things knowing full well they will never have to fulfil them. Anyway, enough of my 'Soapbox' - I am out tonight canvassing on behalf of the Conservative Party ! Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.34pm)
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Willo

South coast - west of Brighton. 08 May 14 6.31pm

Quote Johnny Eagles at 08 May 2014 6.22pm

What's wrong with being in a parliament you despise?

Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists have done it.

I am not swayed away from my thinking on the basis that the Irish Home Rulers and Scottish Nationalists are in their respective Parliaments.

At the end of the day UKIP will never form a Government and are in NO position to offer the country a referendum.They want OUT and it is only the Conservatives who will offer the electorate an opportunity to make that decision.And of course UKIP have played NO part whatsoever in the recovery ! I can only re-iterate that UKIP can spout all populist things knowing full well they will never have to fulfil them.

Anyway, enough of my 'Soapbox' - I am out tonight canvassing on behalf of the Conservative Party !

Edited by Willo (08 May 2014 6.34pm)

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