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 NickinOX  Sailing country. 20 Jul 15 2.56pm |
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If anyone still doubts that slavery was the central issue of the Civil War they might want to read the secession speech of the Confederate Vice President: Start at paragraph 9. Plus, the Confederate flag had largely dropped out of use until its adoption by Dixicrats (Southern Democrats) who were opposed to the civil rights movement. The flag has always been a symbol of the pro-slavery South. If people are ignorant of that, or choose to ignore that it is their choice. However, they should not whine when the link is pointed out.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it. |
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| mcduh 21 Jul 15 2.43am |
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You are asking stirlingsays to read links or understand the world around him. You are asking too much.
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| NickinOX Sailing country. 22 Jul 15 2.19pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am
This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know.
If you come to a fork in the road, take it. |
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Stirlingsays  22 Jul 15 2.37pm |
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Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am
This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 2.49pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm
Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am
This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm)
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| leggedstruggle Croydon 22 Jul 15 2.58pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm
Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am
This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me. Edited by Stirlingsays (22 Jul 2015 2.38pm)
Well another fascist flag, the Islamic State black flag, is waved on British streets with impunity.
mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 22 Jul 15 3.01pm |
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Even when it has dildo's Flags, never ends well.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 3.25pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm
Let's get the swastikas out then... What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it?
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 3.26pm |
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Quote leggedstruggle at 22 Jul 2015 2.58pm
Well another fascist flag, the Islamic State black flag, is waved on British streets with impunity. That flag can only be flown as support for IS and they should have been arrested. I would have been interested to know what other interpretation could have been intended.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 22 Jul 15 3.35pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm
Let's get the swastikas out then... What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it?
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Attachment: | NickinOX Sailing country. 22 Jul 15 3.36pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 2.37pm
Quote NickinOX at 22 Jul 2015 2.19pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 17 Jul 2015 11.47am
This is a matter of freedom of expression for me. I understand that many people connect this flag to some of the horrors of man's inhumanity to man. There is some justification for that. However, those people also need to recognise and allow for the fact that this flag and others also hold other historical and cultural connections to people and that people are allowed to feel that association. It isn't for an individual to tell another individual which flags they may or may not wave or like. For me it comes down to intent......The BNP wave the Union Jack.....That for me doesn't mean that when I celebrate the Union Jack that I'm also agreeing with the politics of the BNP. That is simplistic, unthinking nonsense. It comes down to what you are celebrating about the flag.....All anyone needs to do is ask. To me there is a difference. The Union Jack and English flag are symbols of a country that at one stage allowed slavery. Eventually, the error of this was rectified and the trade in slaves, then later slavery was banned. Both decisions came at economic cost, but were absolutely the correct moral ones. The Confederate flag was created specifically to identify units of an army that was fighting to keep and maintain slavery in perpetuity. Even if a minority of the individuals in that army were slave holders it makes no difference. The cause for which they were fighting was explicitly related to the maintenance of slavery and the oppression of 'the negro'. If you don't believe me, look up the speech of the VP of the Confederacy following secession of the South, and the 1861 Mississippi constitution for an example. The flag had largely fallen out of use until the 1950s when it was reintroduced as a symbol of opposition to the civil rights movement. That should tell us all we need to know. To me, what you say makes no difference makes a big difference. Many of the confederate soldiers fought against the South for the reasons that most soldiers fight.....For their way of life as they saw it. They signed up because signing up was in the culture. They signed up because they were called to and expected too. Most of them didn't own slaves.....Some slaves fought with them....They fought under the banner of the south. People like yourself say all that is washed away by the connection to slavery......Well, for you it is. Those that wish to wave the flag to represent the American South should feel free to do some. Maybe they could put a disclaimer on the flag saying that they don't support slavery or racism.....But this attitude that its evil to wave a flag that has more than one message just doesn't feel right to me.
And many German soldiers were not Nazis, but they fought for the Nazi course nonetheless. Does that make it OK? People who fought for the South were fighting for the maintenance of slavery. They might have had no choice as an individual, they might not have owned slaves, and I had already pointed that out, but the fact of the matter remains that the cause for which they fought wanted to maintain slavery in perpetuity. You can dance around that all you want, but that does not change the facts. As for your comments about slaves fighting for the South, many slaves were forced to work for the Confederate Army, as servants, laborer or cooks, etc. However, the idea that large numbers of slaves voluntarily fought for the South is spurious at best. But, I grant, there is some evidence that as many as several hundred slaves might have served in the Confederate Army as soldiers. However, that should be balanced by the fact that at least 180,000 fled north and joined the federal forces. By the way, when you say "people like yourself", that is not even an argument it is simply pejorative. Furthermore, the straw man argument that somehow I claimed the people who waived the flag were evil is also a crock. Don't make up lies to support your argument. I never said that, and you know it. The Confederate flag was created explicitly to identify regiments fighting for a pro slavery cause. It is not merely connected to slavery and racism, it was created as a symbol of it with the sole purpose of identifying people fighting for that cause. The point is, the Confederate flag does not represent the South. It represents a select group of people in the South who have decided upon the narrative they wanted to create. If people want to wave the flag, that is fine by me. However, if they don't like people pointing out the explicit connection with slavery and racism then they should stop whining about it and ignore the criticism, or stop waving the thing. Edited by NickinOX (22 Jul 2015 3.38pm)
If you come to a fork in the road, take it. |
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| Stirlingsays 22 Jul 15 4.01pm |
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Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 3.35pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 22 Jul 2015 3.25pm
Quote nickgusset at 22 Jul 2015 2.49pm
Let's get the swastikas out then... What are the alternative meanings for the Swastika that someone could have to wave it?
Sure, except that it's not exactly the same design....It wouldn't be the Germanic Swastika nor is there a tradition of this symbol being used as a national unifying symbol. Besides the Buddhists took it from the Hindus......Which is a lot older than Buddhism Nick.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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