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Stirlingsays 27 Sep 17 3.28pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Absolute f*ing bulls. Again. You only have to look at one of the many videos on the internet to see what amounts to cold blooded murder by police who get off scot free to gain even the smallest understanding of why people are pissed off. Oh man of free speech doesn't like it when coloured people use that right. Why shouldn't they have that right? Ooh what they're protesting doesn't paint the people I support in a good light. I know I'll accuse the people with an issue they want to share as being virtue signallers. That's an easy cop out. w**ers for showing some empathy, that's what they are for you and your ilk Stirling. Ah, calling me a racist again. You are a stupid, lying racist nazi twit. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Sep 17 3.28pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Absolute f***ing bulls***. Again.

You only have to look at one of the many videos on the internet to see what amounts to cold blooded murder by police who get off scot free to gain even the smallest understanding of why people are pissed off.
Oh man of free speech doesn't like it when coloured people use that right. Why shouldn't they have that right?

Ooh what they're protesting doesn't paint the people I support in a good light. I know I'll accuse the people with an issue they want to share as being virtue signallers. That's an easy cop out. w***ers for showing some empathy, that's what they are for you and your ilk Stirling.

Ah, calling me a racist again.

You are a stupid, lying racist nazi twit.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Sep 17 3.36pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays When you have a country with more guns than people you have a problem. What you raise is one of the fundamental problems within American culture that isn't going to be solved anytime soon...The right to bear arms and a fundamental suspicion of the government that goes beyond criticism and for a percent seeing it as a pseudo enemy...The seeds of that lies at the heart of their constitution....it's apart of the majority's mental make up and gives its states their independent spirit and identities.....Like everything else it's sometimes taken too far. In reality we can only hope that common sense sees them reducing the worst affects of those culturally negative beliefs. You are right.....when it's your job to deal with criminals all day you become desensitized to them. A lot of their behaviour is so low ethically that it is easy to dehumanise them because that's what plenty of criminals have already done to the Police themselves as they do their victims. As the Police are their on first principles to protect the public you can easily see why the 'them and us' mentality is inevitable. In an atmosphere like that you require a mentally strong and very importantly calm logical individual who stays calm in the heat of action......Those kind of people are ideal and not littered around the place.....and often individuals like don't want to do such a demanding and relatively low paid high hassle job like Police work. You know that reality is what often annoys me when the middle classes in the media slag off police. It's a hard but vital job that most of them wouldn't let their own children go a mile near. Yet like social workers it's a job they are happy to finger point at and smear.....Yet when they need them it's suddenly very different. It's this ongoing chance that you will come into a life and death situation that means that we will get fifty fifty situations on the appropriateness of an action as well as totally wrong reactions. Stress situations that involve instant decisions involving guns always provide for the chance of safety first reactions....safety for the officer(s) death for the criminal/victim/whatever they were. When you add this to the bad apples that every profession will get then tragedy.....well it's inevitable. It's inevitable in societies where police don't have guns so it's multiplied many times in ones that do.....Of course the institution is going to protect their own...They see outsiders who don't really understand or care about the nature of their job assigning 'evil' motives to them and know the damage to morale leaving officers out to dry would have to keeping people and recruitment.....Sometimes it turns out they are right to do it and sometimes not. It's why body cams are essential both for the Police's safety and the public. With the conspiracy theorist mentally being so popular....and with the help of attention seekers plus the democrats playing race and victim cards to get their votes you get communities treating the Police as the enemy....despite many of their own communities being within those forces. It just embeds the problem....which isn't going to change. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Sep 2017 1.51pm) I agree with the body cam thing, and that there is always going to be an element of desensitisation to 'criminals', but the issue here isn't really with whether someone is a criminal, its the use of excessive force that's resulting in people who are not being criminals or aren't presenting a realistic threat to life, being shot dead in very routine police operations such as a car stop, or stop and search. When you watch how the US police react to a suspect compared to how the British Police do, there is very obviously a massive gulf in the training and professionalism: and the intention. The US police seem very aggressive, even when affecting the arrest of a person who has surrendered, without any resistance. Where as when you watch British Police engaging in an arrest they're surprisingly passive, looking to control the situation and de-escalate rather than escalate (which is all an aggressive bullish approach can achieve). That's a problem. The police are, in poor areas, acting as the enemy, not just being labelled the enemy. Where as in the UK, if your pulled over by the police, its a fairly civil affair. Whilst I've had some encounters with the police, in the UK, one thing I'd say is that they're rarely aggressive unless the situation has become violent. US Police have no really standards of training, recruitment and the system is politically biased towards protecting them almost regardless of what they've done. Shooting an unarmed person, should be grounds for a suspension, whilst an independent inquiry is undertaken. Not grounds for slandering the individual, painting them as a criminal, and resolving the situation 'in house'. The 'zero tolerance' mentality has led to a crisis of trust in the police, in poor areas. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Sep 17 3.36pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

When you have a country with more guns than people you have a problem.

What you raise is one of the fundamental problems within American culture that isn't going to be solved anytime soon...The right to bear arms and a fundamental suspicion of the government that goes beyond criticism and for a percent seeing it as a pseudo enemy...The seeds of that lies at the heart of their constitution....it's apart of the majority's mental make up and gives its states their independent spirit and identities.....Like everything else it's sometimes taken too far.

In reality we can only hope that common sense sees them reducing the worst affects of those culturally negative beliefs.

You are right.....when it's your job to deal with criminals all day you become desensitized to them. A lot of their behaviour is so low ethically that it is easy to dehumanise them because that's what plenty of criminals have already done to the Police themselves as they do their victims. As the Police are their on first principles to protect the public you can easily see why the 'them and us' mentality is inevitable.

In an atmosphere like that you require a mentally strong and very importantly calm logical individual who stays calm in the heat of action......Those kind of people are ideal and not littered around the place.....and often individuals like don't want to do such a demanding and relatively low paid high hassle job like Police work.

You know that reality is what often annoys me when the middle classes in the media slag off police. It's a hard but vital job that most of them wouldn't let their own children go a mile near. Yet like social workers it's a job they are happy to finger point at and smear.....Yet when they need them it's suddenly very different.

It's this ongoing chance that you will come into a life and death situation that means that we will get fifty fifty situations on the appropriateness of an action as well as totally wrong reactions. Stress situations that involve instant decisions involving guns always provide for the chance of safety first reactions....safety for the officer(s) death for the criminal/victim/whatever they were. When you add this to the bad apples that every profession will get then tragedy.....well it's inevitable.

It's inevitable in societies where police don't have guns so it's multiplied many times in ones that do.....Of course the institution is going to protect their own...They see outsiders who don't really understand or care about the nature of their job assigning 'evil' motives to them and know the damage to morale leaving officers out to dry would have to keeping people and recruitment.....Sometimes it turns out they are right to do it and sometimes not.

It's why body cams are essential both for the Police's safety and the public.

With the conspiracy theorist mentally being so popular....and with the help of attention seekers plus the democrats playing race and victim cards to get their votes you get communities treating the Police as the enemy....despite many of their own communities being within those forces. It just embeds the problem....which isn't going to change.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Sep 2017 1.51pm)

I agree with the body cam thing, and that there is always going to be an element of desensitisation to 'criminals', but the issue here isn't really with whether someone is a criminal, its the use of excessive force that's resulting in people who are not being criminals or aren't presenting a realistic threat to life, being shot dead in very routine police operations such as a car stop, or stop and search. When you watch how the US police react to a suspect compared to how the British Police do, there is very obviously a massive gulf in the training and professionalism: and the intention.

The US police seem very aggressive, even when affecting the arrest of a person who has surrendered, without any resistance. Where as when you watch British Police engaging in an arrest they're surprisingly passive, looking to control the situation and de-escalate rather than escalate (which is all an aggressive bullish approach can achieve).

That's a problem. The police are, in poor areas, acting as the enemy, not just being labelled the enemy. Where as in the UK, if your pulled over by the police, its a fairly civil affair. Whilst I've had some encounters with the police, in the UK, one thing I'd say is that they're rarely aggressive unless the situation has become violent.

US Police have no really standards of training, recruitment and the system is politically biased towards protecting them almost regardless of what they've done. Shooting an unarmed person, should be grounds for a suspension, whilst an independent inquiry is undertaken. Not grounds for slandering the individual, painting them as a criminal, and resolving the situation 'in house'.

The 'zero tolerance' mentality has led to a crisis of trust in the police, in poor areas.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Ray in Houston Houston 27 Sep 17 3.36pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Anyone needing to understand the problems with progressivism and its selective usage of reality just need to read your post. A balanced view of the job just fly over your head either deliberately or just through your ideology. The fear mongering, identity politics and claims of institutional racism are just proof that nothing is going to get done. Mad expectations of reality achieve nothing. Body cams on the other hand do. I covered all your points but you reject them....cool, you are just another brick in the wall. When you can't defeat the message, attack the messenger. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.
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Ray in Houston

Houston 27 Sep 17 3.36pm

Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Anyone needing to understand the problems with progressivism and its selective usage of reality just need to read your post. A balanced view of the job just fly over your head either deliberately or just through your ideology.

The fear mongering, identity politics and claims of institutional racism are just proof that nothing is going to get done. Mad expectations of reality achieve nothing. Body cams on the other hand do.

I covered all your points but you reject them....cool, you are just another brick in the wall.

When you can't defeat the message, attack the messenger.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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Stirlingsays 27 Sep 17 3.43pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston When you can't defeat the message, attack the messenger. That's rich from you. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Sep 17 3.43pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

When you can't defeat the message, attack the messenger.

That's rich from you.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 27 Sep 17 3.53pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I agree with the body cam thing, and that there is always going to be an element of desensitisation to 'criminals', but the issue here isn't really with whether someone is a criminal, its the use of excessive force that's resulting in people who are not being criminals or aren't presenting a realistic threat to life, being shot dead in very routine police operations such as a car stop, or stop and search. When you watch how the US police react to a suspect compared to how the British Police do, there is very obviously a massive gulf in the training and professionalism: and the intention. The US police seem very aggressive, even when affecting the arrest of a person who has surrendered, without any resistance. Where as when you watch British Police engaging in an arrest they're surprisingly passive, looking to control the situation and de-escalate rather than escalate (which is all an aggressive bullish approach can achieve). That's a problem. The police are, in poor areas, acting as the enemy, not just being labelled the enemy. Where as in the UK, if your pulled over by the police, its a fairly civil affair. Whilst I've had some encounters with the police, in the UK, one thing I'd say is that they're rarely aggressive unless the situation has become violent. US Police have no really standards of training, recruitment and the system is politically biased towards protecting them almost regardless of what they've done. Shooting an unarmed person, should be grounds for a suspension, whilst an independent inquiry is undertaken. Not grounds for slandering the individual, painting them as a criminal, and resolving the situation 'in house'. The 'zero tolerance' mentality has led to a crisis of trust in the police, in poor areas. I don't agree with you on the beta male attitude of the Police in this country. That's something you prefer not me. You respect that approach I don't. When I see idiots abusing the Police and them standing there and taking it I lose respect for them. This doesn't mean they have to be filling them in but the lack of respect is not something I agree with. As for the US police, well I agree with you that it's a problem. It's a problem born of the realities of that country and its history....and guns. I disagree outside of bad apples that there is anything inherently wrong with the Police....this is the OJ Simpson is innocent mentality.....it leads to the same nonsense conclusions as well. I've gone over why, in my view, things go wrong......But people will always, eventually, make poor decisions under stress......when that involves violence the affect is obviously not good. We agree on body cams. I hope that they result in the reduction of all of these problems. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Sep 17 3.53pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The 'zero tolerance' mentality has led to a crisis of trust in the police, in poor areas.

I don't agree with you on the beta male attitude of the Police in this country. That's something you prefer not me. You respect that approach I don't. When I see idiots abusing the Police and them standing there and taking it I lose respect for them. This doesn't mean they have to be filling them in but the lack of respect is not something I agree with.

As for the US police, well I agree with you that it's a problem. It's a problem born of the realities of that country and its history....and guns.

I disagree outside of bad apples that there is anything inherently wrong with the Police....this is the OJ Simpson is innocent mentality.....it leads to the same nonsense conclusions as well.

I've gone over why, in my view, things go wrong......But people will always, eventually, make poor decisions under stress......when that involves violence the affect is obviously not good.

We agree on body cams. I hope that they result in the reduction of all of these problems.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.02pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Ah, calling me a racist again. You are a stupid, lying racist nazi twit. Didn't call you racist. Which shows that for a teacher, you show little understanding of the written word. Whilst you're here, why have you made more fuss about black people silently and with dignity showing their disquiet about innocents being shot by police because they are black or poor than you did about a neo Nazi driving a car into people . Edited by nickgusset (27 Sep 2017 4.02pm)
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.02pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Ah, calling me a racist again.

You are a stupid, lying racist nazi twit.

Didn't call you racist. Which shows that for a teacher, you show little understanding of the written word.

Whilst you're here, why have you made more fuss about black people silently and with dignity showing their disquiet about innocents being shot by police because they are black or poor than you did about a neo Nazi driving a car into people .

Edited by nickgusset (27 Sep 2017 4.02pm)

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Stirlingsays 27 Sep 17 4.05pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Didn't call you racist. Which shows that for a teacher, you show little understanding of the written word. Whilst you're here, why have you made more fuss about black people silently and with dignity showing their disquiet about innocents being shot by police because they are black or poor than you did about a neo Nazi driving a car into people . Edited by nickgusset (27 Sep 2017 4.02pm) You wrote, 'Oh man of free speech doesn't like it when coloured people use that right'. It's pretty clear. You started it. You refused to stop replying to me after I politely asked several times, after the label abuse to stop replying to me. So you get it back. You are a racist lying stupid nazi twit. Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Sep 2017 4.07pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Sep 17 4.05pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Didn't call you racist. Which shows that for a teacher, you show little understanding of the written word.

Edited by nickgusset (27 Sep 2017 4.02pm)

You wrote, 'Oh man of free speech doesn't like it when coloured people use that right'. It's pretty clear.

You started it. You refused to stop replying to me after I politely asked several times, after the label abuse to stop replying to me. So you get it back.

You are a racist lying stupid nazi twit.

Edited by Stirlingsays (27 Sep 2017 4.07pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.09pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You started it. You refused to stop replying to me after I politely asked several times, after the label abuse to stop replying to me. So you get it back. You are a racist lying stupid nazi twit. Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.09pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You started it. You refused to stop replying to me after I politely asked several times, after the label abuse to stop replying to me. So you get it back.

You are a racist lying stupid nazi twit.

Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 27 Sep 17 4.13pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling. I was disappointed that the Great Leader didn't make his speech on one knee - you know to show solidarity and all that. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 27 Sep 17 4.13pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling.

I was disappointed that the Great Leader didn't make his speech on one knee - you know to show solidarity and all that.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Stirlingsays 27 Sep 17 4.15pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling. I explained the problems with the NFL players protest. I'm not going to rewrite it all again because of your laziness. I haven't called for bans. Milo is a troll, but it's people like you who support those that hit people with different opinions...You support people who close down free speech, he doesn't....So when it comes to speech matters I have no respect for your opinion anymore. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

27 Sep 17 4.15pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Why is NFL players protesting deaths bad but Milo spreading inciteful speech good Stirling.

I explained the problems with the NFL players protest. I'm not going to rewrite it all again because of your laziness. I haven't called for bans.

Milo is a troll, but it's people like you who support those that hit people with different opinions...You support people who close down free speech, he doesn't....So when it comes to speech matters I have no respect for your opinion anymore.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.27pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I explained the problems with the NFL players protest. I'm not going to rewrite it all again because of your laziness. I haven't called for bans. Milo is a troll, but it's people like you who support those that hit people with different opinions...You support people who close down free speech, he doesn't....So when it comes to speech matters I have no respect for your opinion anymore. There's a difference betseen acceptable free speech and inciting bigoted hate or singing the praises of gay paedophilia.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 27 Sep 17 4.27pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I explained the problems with the NFL players protest. I'm not going to rewrite it all again because of your laziness. I haven't called for bans.

There's a difference betseen acceptable free speech and inciting bigoted hate or singing the praises of gay paedophilia.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Sep 17 4.29pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I don't agree with you on the beta male attitude of the Police in this country. That's something you prefer not me. You respect that approach I don't. When I see idiots abusing the Police and them standing there and taking it I lose respect for them. This doesn't mean they have to be filling them in but the lack of respect is not something I agree with. I don't really understand what you mean by this - Well I think I do, but I don't think you can have this concept, and apply it to a group (Alpha males are individuals in a pack, and police officers are not alpha males - Alpha males lead and direct the pack and rarely operate well as a group). The police effectively have to control situations, not escalate them. Often that means taking abuse, because the alternative is escalating the situation into something more dangerous. You can't drag in everyone who mouths off to the police, or insults them, the police don't have the capacity. I don't agree with doing that (insulting the police) but the reality of being a copper is that you're going to have to take some abuse and stick from the public, or you're going to spend your days arresting little scummy t*s all day long, and wasting your time, the publics time and other police officers time. The job comes first, not your personal feelings. You have to have discipline, otherwise when it all kicks off, you'll break formation and orders, to sort out some mouthy scrote and turn an incident into a full scale riot, and innocent people, as well as your fellow officers will be put at unnecessary risk. Originally posted by Stirlingsays As for the US police, well I agree with you that it's a problem. It's a problem born of the realities of that country and its history....and guns. I disagree outside of bad apples that there is anything inherently wrong with the Police....this is the OJ Simpson is innocent mentality.....it leads to the same nonsense conclusions as well. Probably true, I suspect, but the metaphor is that a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel - The corruption spreads and infects everyone. Originally posted by Stirlingsays** I've gone over why, in my view, things go wrong......But people will always, eventually, make poor decisions under stress......when that involves violence the affect is obviously not good. Which is why police officers in the UK are trained and trained to deal with stressful situations, and how to approach risky situations. The problem in the US, which is not universal across states, usually involves officers with low levels of training, poor experience, employed on low wages and poor recruitment standards. Before putting guns in peoples hands, they really should be undergoing more training than our own police (about two years) rather than six weeks to two months or so at the academy and a probation period under a training officer. And training should continue throughout the officers career. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Sep 17 4.29pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I don't agree with you on the beta male attitude of the Police in this country. That's something you prefer not me. You respect that approach I don't. When I see idiots abusing the Police and them standing there and taking it I lose respect for them. This doesn't mean they have to be filling them in but the lack of respect is not something I agree with.

I don't really understand what you mean by this - Well I think I do, but I don't think you can have this concept, and apply it to a group (Alpha males are individuals in a pack, and police officers are not alpha males - Alpha males lead and direct the pack and rarely operate well as a group).

The police effectively have to control situations, not escalate them. Often that means taking abuse, because the alternative is escalating the situation into something more dangerous. You can't drag in everyone who mouths off to the police, or insults them, the police don't have the capacity. I don't agree with doing that (insulting the police) but the reality of being a copper is that you're going to have to take some abuse and stick from the public, or you're going to spend your days arresting little scummy t***s all day long, and wasting your time, the publics time and other police officers time.

The job comes first, not your personal feelings. You have to have discipline, otherwise when it all kicks off, you'll break formation and orders, to sort out some mouthy scrote and turn an incident into a full scale riot, and innocent people, as well as your fellow officers will be put at unnecessary risk.

Originally posted by Stirlingsays
As for the US police, well I agree with you that it's a problem. It's a problem born of the realities of that country and its history....and guns.

I disagree outside of bad apples that there is anything inherently wrong with the Police....this is the OJ Simpson is innocent mentality.....it leads to the same nonsense conclusions as well.

Probably true, I suspect, but the metaphor is that a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel - The corruption spreads and infects everyone.

Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I've gone over why, in my view, things go wrong......But people will always, eventually, make poor decisions under stress......when that involves violence the affect is obviously not good.

Which is why police officers in the UK are trained and trained to deal with stressful situations, and how to approach risky situations.

The problem in the US, which is not universal across states, usually involves officers with low levels of training, poor experience, employed on low wages and poor recruitment standards.

Before putting guns in peoples hands, they really should be undergoing more training than our own police (about two years) rather than six weeks to two months or so at the academy and a probation period under a training officer. And training should continue throughout the officers career.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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