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Jacob Rees-Mogg
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hedgehog50  Croydon 06 Sep 17 4.32pm |
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Originally posted by becky
Is there not a bit of irony that Jeremy Corbyn gets less stick for not wanting to kill animals for food than Jacob Rees-Mogg gets for not wanting to kill foetuses? You are right, that's modern 'morality' for you.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 4.56pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
I cannot think of anything more disgusting than the murder of an unborn child. There is a life, probably formed in the womb at 22 weeks, what agony must it go through as it is terminated?? What do posters think is actually happening then. Consider the life of the unborn child from its perspective alone. Religion disease rape loads of other things but see the life of an unborn child is being taken in the worst manner you can imagine. Well firstly, its not murder - Murder is an unlawful homicide. Termination of a pregnancy even at 22 weeks is not unlawful. The number of abortions undertaken at 22 weeks are minimal, most of these are for medical reasons usually relating to either the risk to the mother, still births or severe disorders detected in the foetus. Third of course, is no one can say with accurate certainty as to what is experienced by a foetus at 22 weeks, where children have been born at 22-24 weeks, they typically suffer from brain damage and extensive health problems, due to poor development. Even at 24 weeks the survival rate of birth is around 50% and all children who survive will suffer from brain damage - in the best case scenarios this is blindness / deafness and muteness. In most cases this will be more serious brain damage relating to underdeveloped cognitive function Abortion outside of the first and second trimester is scarce other than at the direction of medical advice. As they say, if you don't want an abortion - don't have one, but the reasons why abortion is legal is far more complex than just 'is bad/good'. Also, banning abortion didn't seem to prevent abortions occurring.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Stirlingsays 06 Sep 17 4.57pm |
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Originally posted by coulsdoneagle
No surprises there
Ah you are awful....but I like you.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 06 Sep 17 4.59pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Astonishing for an apparently very intelligent man. I know....would be good for a proper debate with a top atheist/agnostic.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 5.03pm |
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Originally posted by becky
Is there not a bit of irony that Jeremy Corbyn gets less stick for not wanting to kill animals for food than Jacob Rees-Mogg gets for not wanting to kill foetuses? You can't kill a foetus, under the definitions of UK law it is not alive. Even in later stages of pregnancy I'm fairly sure that UK law does not allow for homicide to be extended to the unborn. Jacob Rees-Mogg is arguably supporting a stance that says other people cannot have abortions. Corbyn is saying he won't eat meat. I don't necessarily disagree with Rees-Mogg, each person is entitled to their opinions, until they try to enforce those as rules to be applied to others.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 5.07pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
I'm also against abolition. My views have shifted since I have become a father. However, this isn't down to any religious aspect. I also don't believe in forcing my views onto others as I don't believe the views of others should be forced onto me. These are personal things with many difficult and complex aspects to them. Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Sep 2017 1.32pm) As it should be, personal choice. Its a very complex issue (not least that outlawing abortion doesn't prevent abortions). I generally get very cautious of people who base their views entirely on the basis of their religion. That seems an anathema to me, to just be able to accept that things like gay marriage or abortion are wrong, because of faith. That's not a trait I like to see in leaders.
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 Hrolf The Ganger 06 Sep 17 5.07pm |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Left wing ideology is more or less 'religion'. It certainly has an exaggerated sense of perceived moral authority.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 5.14pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Mogg isn't an independently-minded conviction politician. He can't be because of his religious leanings. He has to, and does, follow Catholic doctrine first on some issues and defer to the Pope's infallibility. After that, then he can have his own thoughts.
I'd bet that its 'when its kind of convenient' and that like many religious people he tends to pick and choose elements of his faith. That's generally true of people, they tend to pick and choose what to believe in, rather than follow strict codes (i.e. they're not fanatics).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 06 Sep 17 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well firstly, its not murder - Murder is an unlawful homicide. Termination of a pregnancy even at 22 weeks is not unlawful. The number of abortions undertaken at 22 weeks are minimal, most of these are for medical reasons usually relating to either the risk to the mother, still births or severe disorders detected in the foetus. Third of course, is no one can say with accurate certainty as to what is experienced by a foetus at 22 weeks, where children have been born at 22-24 weeks, they typically suffer from brain damage and extensive health problems, due to poor development. Even at 24 weeks the survival rate of birth is around 50% and all children who survive will suffer from brain damage - in the best case scenarios this is blindness / deafness and muteness. In most cases this will be more serious brain damage relating to underdeveloped cognitive function Abortion outside of the first and second trimester is scarce other than at the direction of medical advice. As they say, if you don't want an abortion - don't have one, but the reasons why abortion is legal is far more complex than just 'is bad/good'. Also, banning abortion didn't seem to prevent abortions occurring. The voice of reason once again. I hate the idea that this has become a political football. It is a very sensitive and difficult subject that requires cool heads and sympathy.
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| Stirlingsays 06 Sep 17 5.17pm |
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22 weeks is too late for state sanction, in my view.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 5.17pm |
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All ideology is a religion. There was a book on my Human Nature unit, called 7 Theories of Human Nature, which effectively drew parallels between Christianity and Communism - arguing that Communism, like any ideology, is effectively based in faith and belief. Same is applicable to capitalism. Look at how much faith goes into things like the trickle down effect, despite evidence to the contrary. Basically, humans mistake the models of reality they construct in order to understand the world, for the world itself.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 06 Sep 17 5.23pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
22 weeks is too late for state sanction, in my view. Its very rare to see a termination conducted at 22 weeks for anything other than medical reasons. In most of these cases, terminations would be legal after the 24 week mark anyhow. Usually abortions are 8-16 weeks. Anti-Abortionists like to focus on as close that window as possible, as it constructs an emotive argument - They know they cannot get a ban, but that the agenda is to chip away instead at the provision. You see this in the US, where states introduce policy aimed at getting around the Supreme Court decisions, by limiting access, availability, targeting medical qualification and funding. This to me, is concerning, as its effectively a corruptive practice to deny people their legal rights.
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