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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Oct 19 11.21am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
To the vast majority who want Brexit resolved by the 31st October whether they voted leave or remain. Only a few delusionals like yourself think dragging this out further will be good for anyone except maybe Jeremy Corbyn. We would all like Brexit resolved tomorrow, of that there can be no argument. That's not the point though is it? It's how it's resolved that is. That some are so tired of it they would accept any outcome is true, but it is also dangerous because that sentiment is being exploited by the hardliners. We mustn't just quit trying because we are tired. If the arrangements aren't right then we would be foolish to accept them whenever they are proposed. "Dragging it out" for no reason makes no sense. Delaying it so that a workable arrangement acceptable to Parliament can be negotiated doesn't just make sense, it is essential, because Parliament won't pass it unless it is acceptable. That's the way it is done in the UK. It's not negotiable. It just is.
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Maine Eagle USA 13 Oct 19 11.26am | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Nice bloke aren't you! I knew quite a bit about the EU/NI and what Brexit would mean. I have had many dealings with EU related issues. In your eyes I may not be intelligent enough to cross the road but somehow you managed to cross the Atlantic, dummy Did you now? You knew “quite a bit” eh? So you knew the NHS bus was a lie? You knew the talk of Turkey was a bunch of nonsense? You knew that when David Davis said it would be the easiest deal in history, that he was a tad misguided? You knew that you were voting for a no deal, when the entire leave campaign spoke of piss easy deals, negotiated overnight, from our position of negotiating power? You knew that the NFU would call a no deal brexit the biggest farming disaster ever? You knew about the contents of the yellowhammer report, before it was even written? You had “some dealings” with EU related issues. Wow. So let me get this straight, you believe, you truly and honestly believe that the general public do not know loads more about brexit now, then they did in 2016? If you really believe that, be careful at the pedestrian crossing near sainsburys. So you are the guy who coined the phrase backstop? I wondered who it was. Yes I crossed the Atlantic, that was easy. All the stuff after that, was more difficult, I am nice enough, but not when it comes to right wing brexit ideologues, for them I make an exception.
Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha. |
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Oct 19 11.28am | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Is that the Hammond who is pro-remain and spouted nonsense about how the economy would implode if we left As we haven't left yet we have to reserve judgement on whether it was nonsense or not but even those at the centre of government now know much more than they did in 2016 about the likely impact. In any case as good ideas can spring from many sources they are best judged on their own merit. Dismissing this simply because of prejudice would seem rather defeatist.
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Matov 13 Oct 19 11.43am | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I very much doubt that too many would actually boycott when push came to shove, especially after a properly prepared information campaign when not only the options but the reasons for why they are being offered is concluded. Those who decide to sit on their hands at that point will just look like quitters. LOL. We already voted on the issue. Leave won. Why should I vote again on it? The point of voting is that the result of the vote is honoured. As was promised. Never casting a vote in anything 'advisory' again until the one I did on June 23rd is honoured. Do you honestly think that a second referendum with Remain on the ballot paper will be taken seriously by anybody? That people will actually sit back and respect the vote? One of the myriad of reasons people voted to leave the EU was the ludicrous reality that numerous other votes that have gone against the EU have been either outright ignored or people told they have to vote again. We have another referendum after the first has not been followed on through and what then? Where is the 'healing'? This is the claim I have the most issues around. That somehow a second referendum will bring us all together again when the ONLY clamour for it comes from people who lost the first time around. Beyond parody. And you don't even want a GE first with it as a manifesto option. Out of interest do you still proclaim yourself as a democrat? As somebody who believes in universal suffrage?
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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Spiderman Horsham 13 Oct 19 11.45am | |
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Originally posted by Maine Eagle
Did you now? You knew “quite a bit” eh? So you knew the NHS bus was a lie? You knew the talk of Turkey was a bunch of nonsense? You knew that when David Davis said it would be the easiest deal in history, that he was a tad misguided? You knew that you were voting for a no deal, when the entire leave campaign spoke of piss easy deals, negotiated overnight, from our position of negotiating power? You knew that the NFU would call a no deal brexit the biggest farming disaster ever? You knew about the contents of the yellowhammer report, before it was even written? You had “some dealings” with EU related issues. Wow. So let me get this straight, you believe, you truly and honestly believe that the general public do not know loads more about brexit now, then they did in 2016? If you really believe that, be careful at the pedestrian crossing near sainsburys. So you are the guy who coined the phrase backstop? I wondered who it was. Yes I crossed the Atlantic, that was easy. All the stuff after that, was more difficult, I am nice enough, but not when it comes to right wing brexit ideologues, for them I make an exception. Was it? They will not join the EU now but I have had past conversations with Turkish Diplomats who were coming to the UK to "pave the way" for their entry into the EU. British Government have been issuing self-employment visas to Turkish nationals, I assume you don't know that these are the same visas that were issued to Romanians and Bulgarians prior to them joining the EU.
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Spiderman Horsham 13 Oct 19 11.47am | |
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Originally posted by Maine Eagle
Did you now? You knew “quite a bit” eh? So you knew the NHS bus was a lie? You knew the talk of Turkey was a bunch of nonsense? You knew that when David Davis said it would be the easiest deal in history, that he was a tad misguided? You knew that you were voting for a no deal, when the entire leave campaign spoke of piss easy deals, negotiated overnight, from our position of negotiating power? You knew that the NFU would call a no deal brexit the biggest farming disaster ever? You knew about the contents of the yellowhammer report, before it was even written? You had “some dealings” with EU related issues. Wow. So let me get this straight, you believe, you truly and honestly believe that the general public do not know loads more about brexit now, then they did in 2016? If you really believe that, be careful at the pedestrian crossing near sainsburys. So you are the guy who coined the phrase backstop? I wondered who it was. Yes I crossed the Atlantic, that was easy. All the stuff after that, was more difficult, I am nice enough, but not when it comes to right wing brexit ideologues, for them I make an exception. You really are coming across as a bit of a t***
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Oct 19 11.49am | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I voted for UK independence from the EU I knew that there would be bumps in the road but it's up the parliament to sort out the detail. Anything less than independence is not what I voted for. That's a fair point and is a position held by many who had always been uncomfortable with the EU or who had come to dislike it's direction. That though doesn't cover everyone who voted to leave and nor does it mean that you knew all the detail, as you go on to confirm.
That's a cynical way of looking at things and one I regard as inaccurate. The EU, so far as I can tell, have been crystal clear in what they can accept, and what not, but within those boundaries have been willing to try to find compromises which our Parliament can accept. I still don't see why people get so uptight about putting in place a "backstop" arrangement to be used only if the future detailed arrangements cannot be sorted out in time. We could always walk away from it, citing bad faith. We are a sovereign nation.
Comparing a referendum vote to a GE isn't a fair one. Parliament's last a maximum of 5 years and yes we do vote for a government's general direction, and not the detail. The referendum was intended to be a one off in which the future of our country for generations was to be decided. When with hindsight we realise that many of us were ill equipped to be able to take such a decision, then asking questions about it's validity are perfectly reasonable.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Oct 19 11.57am | |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Serious question. Are you sayng the remainers are blameless in Brexit not being delivered? Totally. No-one is to "blame". This has all been a sequence of events dictated by the logic at the time. Most "remainers" have accepted that, flawed and close though it was, Parliament has voted to trigger Article 50 as a consequence of the referendum. Since then a way to achieve the exit has been negotiated, but rejected by Parliament as a whole. Those voting against included many who themselves were in the "leave" camp. Those voting for included many who themselves were in the "remain" camp. All though are now simply MPs trying to do their duty.
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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Oct 19 12.18pm | |
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Originally posted by Matov
LOL. We already voted on the issue. Leave won. Why should I vote again on it? The point of voting is that the result of the vote is honoured. As was promised. Never casting a vote in anything 'advisory' again until the one I did on June 23rd is honoured. I give you due credit. When you make up your mind nothing stands a chance of changing it, even if it is logical and explained carefully with detailed argument. You repeat exactly the same old mantras you did 100s of pages ago. Things do change you know. Do you honestly think that a second referendum with Remain on the ballot paper will be taken seriously by anybody? That people will actually sit back and respect the vote? Yes I most certainly do. Not too many have quite the same fixed opinion as you do. Most are open to reason and argument and are prepared to evaluate things as they are now, and not just as they were back then. Whenever then was. One of the myriad of reasons people voted to leave the EU was the ludicrous reality that numerous other votes that have gone against the EU have been either outright ignored or people told they have to vote again. We have another referendum after the first has not been followed on through and what then? I see no truth, or logic, at all in those claims. Where is the 'healing'? This is the claim I have the most issues around. That somehow a second referendum will bring us all together again when the ONLY clamour for it comes from people who lost the first time around. Beyond parody. That's also untrue. I know several people locally who originally voted to leave but have subsequently changed their minds. They want another opportunity. The healing would come from ensuring that an overwhelming majority would be stakeholders in whatever result emerged. Maybe that's too radical an idea though for someone who holds black and white views. And you don't even want a GE first with it as a manifesto option. I personally don't want another referendum. I am just repeating the argument made for it, which I can see has merit. I am quite sure that each manifesto will include a position on this. Out of interest do you still proclaim yourself as a democrat? As somebody who believes in universal suffrage? Stupid question. Of course I do. Always though via Parliament and our representative democratic system. Never simply through referendums and an executive trying to force through their own interpretation of what a result meant.
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Hrolf The Ganger 13 Oct 19 12.53pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I give you due credit. When you make up your mind nothing stands a chance of changing it, even if it is logical and explained carefully with detailed argument. You repeat exactly the same old mantras you did 100s of pages ago. Things do change you know. The problem is that your argument for a second referendum is totally flawed no matter how many words you use or how many times you repeat it. Understand. There will no greater understanding of a future Britain outside the EU until it actually happens and time has passed. Before any second vote, people would only be exposed to more propaganda, falsehoods, predictions, self interest and inducements and nothing more that would qualify them to make an educated choice. Your position is just a losers last hope of getting their own way and you know it. We all know it.
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dannyboy1978 13 Oct 19 1.17pm | |
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Originally posted by Maine Eagle
And here you show your callous and selfish world view. You would piss on the Good Friday agreement because your world is where you live and work, and you don’t care about people you cannot directly see on a daily basis. Perhaps you would understand if the IRA become active again and start bombing London? Must have missed all the talk of the NI backstop in 2016. Selfishness works both ways! But democracy is the over arching answer and last time I looked 17.5 million people trump 1.8 million.
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Matov 13 Oct 19 1.23pm | |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I give you due credit. When you make up your mind nothing stands a chance of changing it, even if it is logical and explained carefully with detailed argument. You repeat exactly the same old mantras you did 100s of pages ago. Things do change you know.
Your Emperor is start bollock naked. There are no clothes.
What I struggle with to the point of apoplexy is how anybody can believe that a second referendum, after the first has been deemed of no meaningful consequence will have the slightest shred of credibility. Or how it brings us all together again. Of how it will do the excat opposite of cementing the divides and actually restore our faith in the power of voting. Perhaps it is me? Perhaps I am too narrow-minded to accept that when I am told my vote will be counted and a result acted upon that to then have it explained that perhaps that was not QUITE what all those politicians meant when they promised to honour it. Actually you know what, balls to it. I would rather die being labelled an ignoramus than ever accept I am in the wrong on this. I voted on June 23rd 2016 in utter good faith. And I despise anybody who deems me a fool for doing so because that is what anybody who wants a second referendum with Remain on the ballot paper are doing.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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