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Badger11 Beckenham 09 Oct 19 9.32am
Originally posted by W12 The EU have offered nothing by way of "negotiation". The UK government offer seems a very fair compromise at least as a starting point for detailed negotiations but the EU are showing zero flexibility. Obviously this isn't helped by the surrender act strongly suggesting we will have to ask for an extension. It's also telling that the key phone call came from Merkel and you can bet she was speaking unilaterally for German interests but on but behalf of the entire EU. We can all see who is running the show. How remainers still see the EU as a positive after all this is beyond me. Edited by W12 (09 Oct 2019 9.23am) Exactly my complaint all along. I don't understand people who say "it's not up to the EU we're the ones leaving". If you are getting divorce at some point you face that reality and however reluctantly you start to negotiate who gets the dog. Mrs May got untold flack over the rights of EU citizens in the UK yet from day 1 she wanted to settle this. It was the EU who stalled and yet she gets the blame one of the few times I actually had sympathy for her. Yesterday Michael Gove pointed out that most of the EU countries have still not offered British citizens in their countries reciprocal rights. 1.5m EU citizens now have settled status in the UK it may not be a perfect system but we are doing something whilst the EU plays politics with people lives the very charge hurled against May at the start of all this. Just for once it would be nice the hear some criticism of the EU from the Remain side, I'm not holding my breath. "Four legs good two legs bad" (repeat). One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 09 Oct 19 9.32am

Originally posted by W12

The EU have offered nothing by way of "negotiation". The UK government offer seems a very fair compromise at least as a starting point for detailed negotiations but the EU are showing zero flexibility. Obviously this isn't helped by the surrender act strongly suggesting we will have to ask for an extension.

It's also telling that the key phone call came from Merkel and you can bet she was speaking unilaterally for German interests but on but behalf of the entire EU. We can all see who is running the show.

How remainers still see the EU as a positive after all this is beyond me.

Edited by W12 (09 Oct 2019 9.23am)

Exactly my complaint all along. I don't understand people who say "it's not up to the EU we're the ones leaving". If you are getting divorce at some point you face that reality and however reluctantly you start to negotiate who gets the dog.

Mrs May got untold flack over the rights of EU citizens in the UK yet from day 1 she wanted to settle this. It was the EU who stalled and yet she gets the blame one of the few times I actually had sympathy for her.

Yesterday Michael Gove pointed out that most of the EU countries have still not offered British citizens in their countries reciprocal rights. 1.5m EU citizens now have settled status in the UK it may not be a perfect system but we are doing something whilst the EU plays politics with people lives the very charge hurled against May at the start of all this.

Just for once it would be nice the hear some criticism of the EU from the Remain side, I'm not holding my breath.

"Four legs good two legs bad" (repeat).

One more point

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Matov 09 Oct 19 9.53am
Originally posted by Badger11 Just for once it would be nice the hear some criticism of the EU from the Remain side, I'm not holding my breath. "Four legs good two legs bad" (repeat). To be fair, I am not sure the EU deserve any criticism. Look at it from their point of view. They are an organisation in crisis. Their single currency project has proven to be disastrous, they are beset with 'populist' movements who want to throw collective spanners in the works and then the UK decides to up sticks and leave. The result on June 23rd 2016 was a HUGE blow to them. Massive. And they have to look at the bigger picture which is essentially trying to keep the rest of their Union together. Hence why they had no choice but to try and f* us over from the beginning. That I get. Strategically they had no choice. What I struggle with is why our own politicians have played along with that. Our ire should be kept firmly on those who share our nationality. A clean break Brexit should have been the default position from day one. No ifs, no buts, no pretence that a deal could be obtained. Just a simple understanding that whilst a free trade deal would be a great thing to achieve, it was highly unlikely to happen. And to be fair, the EU dangled that option. I have nothing but the utmost respect, at least in terms of the politicking involved, for the EU in the main. My own disgust really is with Varadkar. A stupid, vain man in my opinion who failed to grasp that when trying to deal with a border issue which involves 85% of your own exports having to cross, as opposed to less than 0.5% coming the other way, then perhaps you might need to be a tad more accommodating. But instead, that chip on the shoulder came to the fore and now he is right in the s. Because the Irish border, in the greater scheme of things, is merely a blip to the UK. I suspect that when the vast reams of analysis are written about this entire s**-storm then poor old Leo is going to come out badly because he has not played his cards well. All very well trying to show off to your European friends but when your entire economy is effectively dependent on us nasty Brits continuing to buy your beef and dairy products along with allowing your exports to cross into a country with a modern infrastructure, pissing off Downing Street is not the best of tactics. But fingers crossed this can all be sorted out. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.
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Matov

09 Oct 19 9.53am

Originally posted by Badger11

Just for once it would be nice the hear some criticism of the EU from the Remain side, I'm not holding my breath.

"Four legs good two legs bad" (repeat).

To be fair, I am not sure the EU deserve any criticism. Look at it from their point of view. They are an organisation in crisis. Their single currency project has proven to be disastrous, they are beset with 'populist' movements who want to throw collective spanners in the works and then the UK decides to up sticks and leave. The result on June 23rd 2016 was a HUGE blow to them. Massive.

And they have to look at the bigger picture which is essentially trying to keep the rest of their Union together. Hence why they had no choice but to try and f*** us over from the beginning. That I get. Strategically they had no choice.

What I struggle with is why our own politicians have played along with that. Our ire should be kept firmly on those who share our nationality.

A clean break Brexit should have been the default position from day one. No ifs, no buts, no pretence that a deal could be obtained. Just a simple understanding that whilst a free trade deal would be a great thing to achieve, it was highly unlikely to happen. And to be fair, the EU dangled that option.

I have nothing but the utmost respect, at least in terms of the politicking involved, for the EU in the main. My own disgust really is with Varadkar. A stupid, vain man in my opinion who failed to grasp that when trying to deal with a border issue which involves 85% of your own exports having to cross, as opposed to less than 0.5% coming the other way, then perhaps you might need to be a tad more accommodating.

But instead, that chip on the shoulder came to the fore and now he is right in the s***. Because the Irish border, in the greater scheme of things, is merely a blip to the UK.

I suspect that when the vast reams of analysis are written about this entire s***-storm then poor old Leo is going to come out badly because he has not played his cards well. All very well trying to show off to your European friends but when your entire economy is effectively dependent on us nasty Brits continuing to buy your beef and dairy products along with allowing your exports to cross into a country with a modern infrastructure, pissing off Downing Street is not the best of tactics.

But fingers crossed this can all be sorted out.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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steeleye20 Croydon 09 Oct 19 10.02am
An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK. Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over. It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums. A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project.
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steeleye20

Croydon 09 Oct 19 10.02am

An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK.

Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over.

It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums.

A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project.

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cryrst The garden of England 09 Oct 19 10.22am
Originally posted by steeleye20 An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK. Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over. It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums. A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project. So that maybe a different party will alter the outcome.
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cryrst

The garden of England 09 Oct 19 10.22am

Originally posted by steeleye20

An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK.

Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over.

It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums.

A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project.

So that maybe a different party will alter the outcome.

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W12 09 Oct 19 10.23am
Originally posted by steeleye20 independent review of brexit And who the phuck would you see as "independent" at this point?
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W12 09 Oct 19 10.23am

Originally posted by steeleye20

independent review of brexit

And who the phuck would you see as "independent" at this point?

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Badger11 Beckenham 09 Oct 19 10.34am
Originally posted by Matov To be fair, I am not sure the EU deserve any criticism. Look at it from their point of view. They are an organisation in crisis. Their single currency project has proven to be disastrous, they are beset with 'populist' movements who want to throw collective spanners in the works and then the UK decides to up sticks and leave. The result on June 23rd 2016 was a HUGE blow to them. Massive. And they have to look at the bigger picture which is essentially trying to keep the rest of their Union together. Hence why they had no choice but to try and f* us over from the beginning. That I get. Strategically they had no choice. What I struggle with is why our own politicians have played along with that. Our ire should be kept firmly on those who share our nationality. A clean break Brexit should have been the default position from day one. No ifs, no buts, no pretence that a deal could be obtained. Just a simple understanding that whilst a free trade deal would be a great thing to achieve, it was highly unlikely to happen. And to be fair, the EU dangled that option. I have nothing but the utmost respect, at least in terms of the politicking involved, for the EU in the main. My own disgust really is with Varadkar. A stupid, vain man in my opinion who failed to grasp that when trying to deal with a border issue which involves 85% of your own exports having to cross, as opposed to less than 0.5% coming the other way, then perhaps you might need to be a tad more accommodating. But instead, that chip on the shoulder came to the fore and now he is right in the s. Because the Irish border, in the greater scheme of things, is merely a blip to the UK. I suspect that when the vast reams of analysis are written about this entire s**-storm then poor old Leo is going to come out badly because he has not played his cards well. All very well trying to show off to your European friends but when your entire economy is effectively dependent on us nasty Brits continuing to buy your beef and dairy products along with allowing your exports to cross into a country with a modern infrastructure, pissing off Downing Street is not the best of tactics. But fingers crossed this can all be sorted out. Good post and I think your analysis is largely correct. I don't blame the EU for how they have behaved it's their right to do so. My frustration is aimed at the Remainer politicians who seem incapable of the slightest criticism of them. There are plenty of Leavers who have rightly criticised May and now Johnson sadly the same cannot be said for the other side. Another example of the Remain blindness is the Irish border question. It was the EU/Eire who are threatening the Good Friday agreement by bringing this into play as a negotiating tactic. Now it could be argued that the UK deserves some criticism but if you listen to the Remain politicians it's all our fault and nothing to do with the Irish / EU. Hopefully wiser heads will prevail, recently the head of the Irish farmers begged Leo to sort this out they know have devastating it could be to them. Boris has offered a carrot to Irish agriculture and there is plenty of room for movement in that area. I have a sneaky feeling that unless there is a deal we will leave on 31 Oct I don't know how but if we do suddenly the EU and the Irish in particular will have a big problem on their hands. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 09 Oct 19 10.34am

Originally posted by Matov

What I struggle with is why our own politicians have played along with that. Our ire should be kept firmly on those who share our nationality.

But instead, that chip on the shoulder came to the fore and now he is right in the s***. Because the Irish border, in the greater scheme of things, is merely a blip to the UK.

But fingers crossed this can all be sorted out.

Good post and I think your analysis is largely correct. I don't blame the EU for how they have behaved it's their right to do so. My frustration is aimed at the Remainer politicians who seem incapable of the slightest criticism of them. There are plenty of Leavers who have rightly criticised May and now Johnson sadly the same cannot be said for the other side.

Another example of the Remain blindness is the Irish border question. It was the EU/Eire who are threatening the Good Friday agreement by bringing this into play as a negotiating tactic.

Now it could be argued that the UK deserves some criticism but if you listen to the Remain politicians it's all our fault and nothing to do with the Irish / EU.

Hopefully wiser heads will prevail, recently the head of the Irish farmers begged Leo to sort this out they know have devastating it could be to them. Boris has offered a carrot to Irish agriculture and there is plenty of room for movement in that area.

I have a sneaky feeling that unless there is a deal we will leave on 31 Oct I don't know how but if we do suddenly the EU and the Irish in particular will have a big problem on their hands.

One more point

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Rudi Hedman Caterham 09 Oct 19 10.34am
Originally posted by Badger11 Back on topic (yes I know I also posted). Claims in the media that the EU want to keep NI locked into a customs union permanently. At the moment it's not clear if this is true but if it is then it shows that the EU were never serious about a deal. No British government could ever give away our sovereignty like this and expect to survive the next GE. No doubt the usual suspects will blame Johnson because the EU should never be criticised it's always our fault remember. Of course if we leave without a deal then the Irish have a problem but not to worry their Foreign Secretary has a solution, "electronic customs checks away from the border". Of course this is a million miles away from Johnson's solution which is "electronic customs checks away from the border." Yep. And quite laughable how people, mainly MPs, are pointing the finger at Boris for trying to play the blame game, yet that is what they are guilty of. Blame. How dare someone show up what they’re trying to do. It’s really very childish all this. Like a group of school children brought up in front of class after a lunchtime with who slung mud at the staff room windows. Truly pathetic. All of them. Remainers by far the worst. I go from ‘I can’t be bothered with all this’, and luckily I don’t have to, to wanting to get out even more. COYP
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Rudi Hedman

Caterham 09 Oct 19 10.34am

Originally posted by Badger11

Back on topic (yes I know I also posted).

Claims in the media that the EU want to keep NI locked into a customs union permanently. At the moment it's not clear if this is true but if it is then it shows that the EU were never serious about a deal. No British government could ever give away our sovereignty like this and expect to survive the next GE. No doubt the usual suspects will blame Johnson because the EU should never be criticised it's always our fault remember.

Of course if we leave without a deal then the Irish have a problem but not to worry their Foreign Secretary has a solution, "electronic customs checks away from the border". Of course this is a million miles away from Johnson's solution which is "electronic customs checks away from the border."

Yep. And quite laughable how people, mainly MPs, are pointing the finger at Boris for trying to play the blame game, yet that is what they are guilty of. Blame. How dare someone show up what they’re trying to do. It’s really very childish all this. Like a group of school children brought up in front of class after a lunchtime with who slung mud at the staff room windows. Truly pathetic. All of them. Remainers by far the worst.

I go from ‘I can’t be bothered with all this’, and luckily I don’t have to, to wanting to get out even more.

COYP

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Badger11 Beckenham 09 Oct 19 10.37am
Originally posted by steeleye20 An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK. Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over. It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums. A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project. So have we, I also think the German voters have had enough of her. I hope we leave on 31 Oct and then Boris calls an election and reminds the voters that the opposition didn't want one and could have had one before Brexit. One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 09 Oct 19 10.37am

Originally posted by steeleye20

An unusually forthright Angele Merkel who clearly has had enough of Brexit and the UK.

Unless the UK revokes then hopefully it is over.

It is more likely an extension will be offered, but 3 months is no help, really at least 2/4 years are necessary to let the UK have its elections and referendums.

A fundamental independent review of brexit to discover what its aims are and if they are deliverable, as most normal businesses do before a new project.

So have we, I also think the German voters have had enough of her.

I hope we leave on 31 Oct and then Boris calls an election and reminds the voters that the opposition didn't want one and could have had one before Brexit.

One more point

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 09 Oct 19 10.37am
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle This is precisely the kind of point on which you’re quick to castigate others. The murder rate in London is unprecedented - in the 1960s two gangsters killed some people and they were Londoners. As an example of whataboutery that’s pretty good. As I wasn't even trying to make any comparisons I have no idea why you are getting upset. I was merely describing my own, long ago, experiences of the East End which was undoubtedly very different to today. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 09 Oct 19 10.37am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

This is precisely the kind of point on which you’re quick to castigate others. The murder rate in London is unprecedented - in the 1960s two gangsters killed some people and they were Londoners. As an example of whataboutery that’s pretty good.

As I wasn't even trying to make any comparisons I have no idea why you are getting upset. I was merely describing my own, long ago, experiences of the East End which was undoubtedly very different to today.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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steeleye20 Croydon 09 Oct 19 10.42am
Originally posted by W12 And who the phuck would you see as "independent" at this point? A Royal Commission, has been done a few times before, a good way of dropping things forever with nobody noticing.
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steeleye20

Croydon 09 Oct 19 10.42am

Originally posted by W12

And who the phuck would you see as "independent" at this point?

A Royal Commission, has been done a few times before, a good way of dropping things forever with nobody noticing.

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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 09 Oct 19 10.45am
Originally posted by Badger11 So have we, I also think the German voters have had enough of her. I hope we leave on 31 Oct and then Boris calls an election and reminds the voters that the opposition didn't want one and could have had one before Brexit. I don’t think Boris wants to leave on 31st - he wants it blocked which he can sell to win a GE; a mandate for the next 5 years is far more important for him - he was only a Brexiteer for his careers sake to begin with.
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EverybodyDannsNow

SE19 09 Oct 19 10.45am

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Originally posted by Badger11

So have we, I also think the German voters have had enough of her.

I hope we leave on 31 Oct and then Boris calls an election and reminds the voters that the opposition didn't want one and could have had one before Brexit.

I don’t think Boris wants to leave on 31st - he wants it blocked which he can sell to win a GE; a mandate for the next 5 years is far more important for him - he was only a Brexiteer for his careers sake to begin with.

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Dannyh.V2 Stone lickers 09 Oct 19 10.45am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them. There is no replacement no one in their right mind wants Corbyn running an interim Government, so not really a big if. Intense pressure ? why would the EU member states do that? The only reason I can think of would be to force us back to the table, which kind of tells me the EU is hell bent on us staying. Why would that be do you think ? As for the consequences to Hungry comment that just shows that you also see the EU as a playground bully nicking everyone's lunch money Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again. Which all sounds very doom and gloom, however you are forgetting the 17,500,000 that voted to leave will more than likely vote for Boris, so any attempt at no confidence and calling a general election would in all likely hood blow up in the remain camps faces, which is why Steptoe has declined the invitation all ready. Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble. Yes 17,500,000 thousand people voted to leave, and the remainer's in Parliament continue to do there level best to thwart us leaving the EU, something which remain gloss over in their "scenario's" which lets be honest are based on pure speculation and nothing else.
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Dannyh.V2

Stone lickers 09 Oct 19 10.45am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If he is still the PM, which is a big if, then I agree he might try, the likely candidate being Hungary. However, just imagine what might happen after that. The pressure put by the other 26 on Hungary would be intense and the consequences of them not falling into line could be severe for them.

There is no replacement no one in their right mind wants Corbyn running an interim Government, so not really a big if.

Intense pressure ? why would the EU member states do that? The only reason I can think of would be to force us back to the table, which kind of tells me the EU is hell bent on us staying. Why would that be do you think ?

As for the consequences to Hungry comment that just shows that you also see the EU as a playground bully nicking everyone's lunch money

Should it succeed what would happen? There would be a period of "no deal" but also a vote of no confidence followed by a GE. Could he win that then, with the reality of a "no deal" being felt? If he didn't win the GE then a new government could try to suspend the "no deal" by reapplying and starting the negotiations again.

Which all sounds very doom and gloom, however you are forgetting the 17,500,000 that voted to leave will more than likely vote for Boris, so any attempt at no confidence and calling a general election would in all likely hood blow up in the remain camps faces, which is why Steptoe has declined the invitation all ready.

Much more likely in my view that he would try to avoid such a scenario and allow the extension to happen, blaming the EU, Parliament and the Flying Spaghetti Monster for causing the "people" all this trouble.

Yes 17,500,000 thousand people voted to leave, and the remainer's in Parliament continue to do there level best to thwart us leaving the EU, something which remain gloss over in their "scenario's" which lets be honest are based on pure speculation and nothing else.

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