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legaleagle 05 May 16 8.44pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Peoples words are oft quoted without even including the rest of the sentence, let alone in what respects. So much is taken out of context. Meanwhile, the panama papers are pushed to the back of the news agenda. Much as it astonishes me to find myself agreeing with Matthew on a topic,I think he has a point on aspects of this Nick. You and I would (rightly) quickly call foul if the same hoary old generalisations and stereotyping were trotted out about say,Muslims,or say people of Asian origin.But,when it comes to Jews it seems at times the sense of outrage or criticism is less in some quarters,and its perfectly acceptable for some to typecast a wider group based on negative actions of a few being singled out ...the issue should be slave financiers and traders per se in this example. The mere fact of her mind focusing on the ethnicity of one group of people involved in a practice unfortunately resonates with the hoary old canards of all Jews being able to readily be stereotyped in a certain negative way. If she was writing about slave trade participants per se without discriminating by seemingly only focusing on the ethnicity of some people,no problem.But what is the reason why she elects to seemingly focus on one particular group out of many involved in slave trading,in terms simply of their ethnicity. Its naff and "unprogressive". The reality is that there was an appalling "African holocaust" arising from the slave trade. Many national groups and ethnicities were involved,including Europeans,Arabs,Jews and even some African "collaborators".So,to focus on a particular ethnic group present (and one at that which was forced because of prejudice in Europe to largely have to earn a living in the "trading" sector,so a presence of some kind in any widespread trading activity at the time is hardly surprising)is dodgy.Ironically, it reminds me in a funny way of some early trade unions in South Africa who called for revolution and equality...but only for the group that suited them...whites,while having no ideological dfficulties with racism..! I understand your frustration about topics like the Panama papers going off the news pages (though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that leak not being a million miles unconnected to Langley,Virginia) but a dodgy view is a dodgy view whether expressed by someone who's general political stance we agree with or oppose, and however much the prevalence of such views is being exaggerated and twisted.And ,yes, the current focus on anti-semitism within the Labour Party is being taken up by most of the media IMO to be used for Labour bashing purposes and flows from a classic piece of Lynton Crosbyesque political campaigning, ...but that doesn't mean that as a result some people with offensive views aren't rightly being outed as such. Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2016 9.11pm)
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legaleagle

05 May 16 8.44pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Peoples words are oft quoted without even including the rest of the sentence, let alone in what respects.

So much is taken out of context.

Meanwhile, the panama papers are pushed to the back of the news agenda.

Much as it astonishes me to find myself agreeing with Matthew on a topic,I think he has a point on aspects of this Nick.

You and I would (rightly) quickly call foul if the same hoary old generalisations and stereotyping were trotted out about say,Muslims,or say people of Asian origin.But,when it comes to Jews it seems at times the sense of outrage or criticism is less in some quarters,and its perfectly acceptable for some to typecast a wider group based on negative actions of a few being singled out ...the issue should be slave financiers and traders per se in this example. The mere fact of her mind focusing on the ethnicity of one group of people involved in a practice unfortunately resonates with the hoary old canards of all Jews being able to readily be stereotyped in a certain negative way.

If she was writing about slave trade participants per se without discriminating by seemingly only focusing on the ethnicity of some people,no problem.But what is the reason why she elects to seemingly focus on one particular group out of many involved in slave trading,in terms simply of their ethnicity. Its naff and "unprogressive".

The reality is that there was an appalling "African holocaust" arising from the slave trade. Many national groups and ethnicities were involved,including Europeans,Arabs,Jews and even some African "collaborators".So,to focus on a particular ethnic group present (and one at that which was forced because of prejudice in Europe to largely have to earn a living in the "trading" sector,so a presence of some kind in any widespread trading activity at the time is hardly surprising)is dodgy.Ironically, it reminds me in a funny way of some early trade unions in South Africa who called for revolution and equality...but only for the group that suited them...whites,while having no ideological dfficulties with racism..!

I understand your frustration about topics like the Panama papers going off the news pages (though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that leak not being a million miles unconnected to Langley,Virginia) but a dodgy view is a dodgy view whether expressed by someone who's general political stance we agree with or oppose, and however much the prevalence of such views is being exaggerated and twisted.And ,yes, the current focus on anti-semitism within the Labour Party is being taken up by most of the media IMO to be used for Labour bashing purposes and flows from a classic piece of Lynton Crosbyesque political campaigning, ...but that doesn't mean that as a result some people with offensive views aren't rightly being outed as such.

Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2016 9.11pm)

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NickinOX Sailing country. 05 May 16 9.07pm
Originally posted by nickgusset I mentioned her earlier, so it's not another one! I read her comments on the link, could you explain what you think is anti semetic about them. Aren't you a teacher? Either way, surely you know what a definite article is for. Replace "the Jews" with "the Muslims" and you'd have been all over that. And quite right you would have been too. Edited by NickinOX (05 May 2016 9.07pm) If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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NickinOX

Sailing country. 05 May 16 9.07pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I mentioned her earlier, so it's not another one!

I read her comments on the link, could you explain what you think is anti semetic about them.

Aren't you a teacher?

Either way, surely you know what a definite article is for. Replace "the Jews" with "the Muslims" and you'd have been all over that. And quite right you would have been too.

Edited by NickinOX (05 May 2016 9.07pm)

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.

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matt_himself Matataland 05 May 16 10.59pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Much as it astonishes me to find myself agreeing with Matthew on a topic,I think he has a point on aspects of this Nick. You and I would (rightly) quickly call foul if the same hoary old generalisations and stereotyping were trotted out about say,Muslims,or say people of Asian origin.But,when it comes to Jews it seems at times the sense of outrage or criticism is less in some quarters,and its perfectly acceptable for some to typecast a wider group based on negative actions of a few being singled out ...the issue should be slave financiers and traders per se in this example. The mere fact of her mind focusing on the ethnicity of one group of people involved in a practice unfortunately resonates with the hoary old canards of all Jews being able to readily be stereotyped in a certain negative way. If she was writing about slave trade participants per se without discriminating by seemingly only focusing on the ethnicity of some people,no problem.But what is the reason why she elects to seemingly focus on one particular group out of many involved in slave trading,in terms simply of their ethnicity. Its naff and "unprogressive". The reality is that there was an appalling "African holocaust" arising from the slave trade. Many national groups and ethnicities were involved,including Europeans,Arabs,Jews and even some African "collaborators".So,to focus on a particular ethnic group present (and one at that which was forced because of prejudice in Europe to largely have to earn a living in the "trading" sector,so a presence of some kind in any widespread trading activity at the time is hardly surprising)is dodgy.Ironically, it reminds me in a funny way of some early trade unions in South Africa who called for revolution and equality...but only for the group that suited them...whites,while having no ideological dfficulties with racism..! I understand your frustration about topics like the Panama papers going off the news pages (though I wouldn't rule out the possibility of that leak not being a million miles unconnected to Langley,Virginia) but a dodgy view is a dodgy view whether expressed by someone who's general political stance we agree with or oppose, and however much the prevalence of such views is being exaggerated and twisted.And ,yes, the current focus on anti-semitism within the Labour Party is being taken up by most of the media IMO to be used for Labour bashing purposes and flows from a classic piece of Lynton Crosbyesque political campaigning, ...but that doesn't mean that as a result some people with offensive views aren't rightly being outed as such. Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2016 9.11pm) I hope agreeing with me doesn't make you feel dirty. I completely agree. The stereotyping of the money fixated Slave enabling Jew is the imaginary she has presented, whether consciously or unconsciously. If someone in politics used similar imagery to portray the Irish as retards who are only able to perform the lowest form of manual labour, this would would be rightly slammed as unacceptable. I don't get how anyone can excuse her language or tone. Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2016 10.59pm) "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 05 May 16 10.59pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

Much as it astonishes me to find myself agreeing with Matthew on a topic,I think he has a point on aspects of this Nick.

Edited by legaleagle (05 May 2016 9.11pm)

I hope agreeing with me doesn't make you feel dirty.

I completely agree. The stereotyping of the money fixated Slave enabling Jew is the imaginary she has presented, whether consciously or unconsciously. If someone in politics used similar imagery to portray the Irish as retards who are only able to perform the lowest form of manual labour, this would would be rightly slammed as unacceptable.

I don't get how anyone can excuse her language or tone.

Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2016 10.59pm)

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 05 May 16 11.50pm
Originally posted by matt_himself I hope agreeing with me doesn't make you feel dirty. I completely agree. The stereotyping of the money fixated Slave enabling Jew is the imaginary she has presented, whether consciously or unconsciously. If someone in politics used similar imagery to portray the Irish as retards who are only able to perform the lowest form of manual labour, this would would be rightly slammed as unacceptable. I don't get how anyone can excuse her language or tone. Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2016 10.59pm) Fair enough. Using the Jews as opposed to some Jews and the connotations therein does render it anti-Semitic. That said, I have it on good authority that the woman does a lot of anti racist work. However the press furore about anti semitism seems to miss some stuff out... [Link] (yes it's whataboutery, but does expose how the press are out for Corbyn) No doubt that it will die down now the elections have happened.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 05 May 16 11.50pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

I hope agreeing with me doesn't make you feel dirty.

I don't get how anyone can excuse her language or tone.

Edited by matt_himself (05 May 2016 10.59pm)

Fair enough. Using the Jews as opposed to some Jews and the connotations therein does render it anti-Semitic.

That said, I have it on good authority that the woman does a lot of anti racist work.

However the press furore about anti semitism seems to miss some stuff out...

[Link] (yes it's whataboutery, but does expose how the press are out for Corbyn)

No doubt that it will die down now the elections have happened.

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 May 16 9.52am
A little curio from the past. Frost interviewing Mosley in 1967. The first ten minutes are just economics based but then it gets really interesting. Full on anti-semitism. [Link] Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 May 16 9.52am

A little curio from the past. Frost interviewing Mosley in 1967. The first ten minutes are just economics based but then it gets really interesting. Full on anti-semitism.

[Link]

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 06 May 16 10.44am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Slavery has been a symptom of humanity for thousands of years. Is pointing the finger at any one group really significant in any context? Didn't white slave traders often buy their slaves from Black African slave traders? Does that mean we should call black people out for causing their own plight? People use others for profit end of story. Slavery still happening in some places and in any case we now have migrant labour to keep the rich man rich instead, the next best thing. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (05 May 2016 3.45pm) Probably true, historically speaking though, the significance of the slave trade from Africa also needs to be seen in a wider context than race. For example, whilst slavery was abhorrent, the treatment of white working classes was particularly pleasant either, and was also a system of cruelty in the name of profit. The tendency to reduce Slavery, and the holocaust, to racial justifications is a simplification that undermines the real horrors of the regimes in question. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 06 May 16 10.44am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Slavery has been a symptom of humanity for thousands of years. Is pointing the finger at any one group really significant in any context?

Didn't white slave traders often buy their slaves from Black African slave traders? Does that mean we should call black people out for causing their own plight?

People use others for profit end of story. Slavery still happening in some places and in any case we now have migrant labour to keep the rich man rich instead, the next best thing.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (05 May 2016 3.45pm)

Probably true, historically speaking though, the significance of the slave trade from Africa also needs to be seen in a wider context than race. For example, whilst slavery was abhorrent, the treatment of white working classes was particularly pleasant either, and was also a system of cruelty in the name of profit.

The tendency to reduce Slavery, and the holocaust, to racial justifications is a simplification that undermines the real horrors of the regimes in question.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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johnfirewall 06 May 16 10.48am
Originally posted by nickgusset Fair enough. Using the Jews as opposed to some Jews and the connotations therein does render it anti-Semitic. That said, I have it on good authority that the woman does a lot of anti racist work. However the press furore about anti semitism seems to miss some stuff out... [Link] (yes it's whataboutery, but does expose how the press are out for Corbyn) No doubt that it will die down now the elections have happened. Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages. Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is. You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point.
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johnfirewall

06 May 16 10.48am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Fair enough. Using the Jews as opposed to some Jews and the connotations therein does render it anti-Semitic.

That said, I have it on good authority that the woman does a lot of anti racist work.

However the press furore about anti semitism seems to miss some stuff out...

[Link] (yes it's whataboutery, but does expose how the press are out for Corbyn)

No doubt that it will die down now the elections have happened.

Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages.

Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is.

You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 06 May 16 10.54am
Originally posted by johnfirewall Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages. Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is. You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point. Even though I said it was anti semetic in my post you replied too.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 06 May 16 10.54am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages.

Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is.

You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point.

Even though I said it was anti semetic in my post you replied too.

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johnfirewall 06 May 16 11.04am
Originally posted by nickgusset Even though I said it was anti semetic in my post you replied too. Yes but does that extend to any of the other recent instances?
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johnfirewall

06 May 16 11.04am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Even though I said it was anti semetic in my post you replied too.

Yes but does that extend to any of the other recent instances?

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Kermit8 Hevon 06 May 16 11.40am
Originally posted by johnfirewall Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages. Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is. You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point. Not so. He made racialist comments. Proper racism, the real stuff, is all about exclusion/ violence/haranguing or all three in some cases. Ron was being a racialist prick but he's no racist. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 06 May 16 11.40am

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Yes, a lot of the left do, but only for the specific groups they support, that's the whole fcuking point of this thread which you seem to be missing after half a dozen pages.

Ron Atkinson brought through a lot of black players. Does that preclude him from being racist? His views dictate by all definitions that he is.

You've continuously denied any of this is actually racist or even anti-Semitic anyway, so you've invalidated your own point.

Not so. He made racialist comments. Proper racism, the real stuff, is all about exclusion/ violence/haranguing or all three in some cases.

Ron was being a racialist prick but he's no racist.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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johnfirewall 06 May 16 11.54am
Originally posted by Kermit8 Not so. He made racialist comments. Proper racism, the real stuff, is all about exclusion/ violence/haranguing or all three in some cases. Ron was being a racialist prick but he's no racist. You read the same Guardian article this week which narrowed racism down to oppression? Sorry but these attitudes lead to all of those things.
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johnfirewall

06 May 16 11.54am

Originally posted by Kermit8

Not so. He made racialist comments. Proper racism, the real stuff, is all about exclusion/ violence/haranguing or all three in some cases.

Ron was being a racialist prick but he's no racist.

You read the same Guardian article this week which narrowed racism down to oppression?

Sorry but these attitudes lead to all of those things.

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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 06 May 16 12.00pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall You read the same Guardian article this week which narrowed racism down to oppression? Sorry but these attitudes lead to all of those things. Not necessarily, when I first moved to Croydon in 86 I became friends with an Anglo Indian (before that I had never heard of Anglo Indian)and one day I said to him that I was going down to the ** shop. He was offended and asked me not to use that term (this was 88 ish)I asked what term. He then explained that he found the word ** offensive. I hadn't given it a moments thought before then. the dignified don't even enter in the game
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Y Ddraig Goch

In The Crowd 06 May 16 12.00pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

You read the same Guardian article this week which narrowed racism down to oppression?

Sorry but these attitudes lead to all of those things.

Not necessarily, when I first moved to Croydon in 86 I became friends with an Anglo Indian (before that I had never heard of Anglo Indian)and one day I said to him that I was going down to the **** shop. He was offended and asked me not to use that term (this was 88 ish)I asked what term. He then explained that he found the word **** offensive. I hadn't given it a moments thought before then.

the dignified don't even enter in the game

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