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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 12.12pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The leaflet doesn't mention immigration just skin colour. And how do you know what the general feeling towards immigration was in the UK back then? A time when Churches were still packed and people neighbourly. Don't think the majority would have had the obnoxious views necessary to give any sort of approval to that leaflet but just a nasty minority. Pretty much the same as today. I was around then. The churches were not packed, people were perhaps more neighbourly. Yes, there was a great deal of disquiet regarding immigration. People resented having their localities transformed by people of different culture, language, religion and race. Even then white-flight was common. The majority of people supported the analysis of the situation of the MP, Enoch Powell. So back then multi-culturalism was as much a failure as it is now.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Lyons550 Shirley 23 Oct 17 12.22pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
General Election leaflet from the mid-60's. Tone setter for the 70's and the N F. Unfortunately not fake. And not condemned by the Tory candidate it was supporting. Edited by Kermit8 (23 Oct 2017 10.11am)
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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Oct 17 12.23pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
I was around then. The churches were not packed, people were perhaps more neighbourly. Yes, there was a great deal of disquiet regarding immigration. People resented having their localities transformed by people of different culture, language, religion and race. Even then white-flight was common. The majority of people supported the analysis of the situation of the MP, Enoch Powell. So back then multi-culturalism was as much a failure as it is now. All the churches were packed in Norbury when I was a young lad in the 70's. Standing room only. Maybe you lived in a more pagan loving part of the borough? Disquiet and resentment emanated from a minority of those of a xenophobic and racist character. The majority were maybe slightly perturbed, a bit confused and curious but firmly not of the way of thinking that they should be openly hostile. Much as you like to believe otherwise most folk just take as they find and have a live and let live attitude. They did back then and they do today. You don't understand that because your character is different.
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hedgehog50 Croydon 23 Oct 17 12.29pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
All the churches were packed in Norbury when I was a young lad in the 70's. Standing room only. Maybe you lived in a more pagan loving part of the borough? Disquiet and resentment emanated from a minority of those of a xenophobic and racist character. The majority were maybe slightly perturbed, a bit confused and curious but firmly not of the way of thinking that they should be openly hostile. Much as you like to believe otherwise most folk just take as they find and have a live and let live attitude. They did back then and they do today. You don't understand that because your character is different. I just see what is in front of my nose, you see what you would like to be in front of your nose. (Us in Thornton Heath used to consider Norbury posh, and certainly not part of Croydon.)
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Oct 17 12.33pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
So why did you masochistically vote for it? Aggressive capitalism, Thatcherism, globalisation, the free market, deregulation of housing controls, privatisation, etc. All babies of Conservative and right-wing thinking. All have led us to where you think we are today and all because your side of the political fence have allowed it. I think you are going on a false assumption. The Blair government was more of all of those things than Thatcher ever was. Globalisation obviously goes beyond domestic politics, especially when you are part of a greater trading group like the EU. Mass immigration started under a Labour government and was eleveated to new unpresidented levels under Labour.
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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Oct 17 12.37pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
The leaflet doesn't mention immigration just skin colour. And how do you know what the general feeling towards immigration was in the UK back then? A time when Churches were still packed and people neighbourly. Don't think the majority would have had the obnoxious views necessary to give any sort of approval to that leaflet but just a nasty minority. Pretty much the same as today. Deliberately pedantic. It amounts to the same thing. Bottom line is that no one voted for mass migration.
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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Oct 17 12.38pm | |
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Originally posted by Lyons550
You've lost me on that one Lyons. the National Front was formed three years after that leaflet and Powell's speech was only four years after and the N.F's zenith seven years after that. A direct line. Was the 'tone' set ending in the referendum result only apparent in the preceding few months or had it been bubbling for many years? I seem to remember loud Tory Eurosceptics in the early 90's. It evolved. So going back to your trying to blame far right-wing hate crimes because of Labour once being in power or being more left-wing...well, that is ludicrous and somewhat in line with something Goebbels would approve of as a tactic so well done you.
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Lyons550 Shirley 23 Oct 17 12.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
You've lost me on that one Lyons. the National Front was formed three years after that leaflet and Powell's speech was only four years after and the N.F's zenith seven years after that. A direct line. Was the 'tone' set ending in the referendum result only apparent in the preceding few months or had it been bubbling for many years? I seem to remember loud Tory Eurosceptics in the early 90's. It evolved. So going back to your trying to blame far right-wing hate crimes because of Labour once being in power or being more left-wing...well, that is ludicrous and somewhat in line with something Goebbels would approve of as a tactic so well done you.
The real point being if you look far enough back you can contrive any spurious link you wish...there's always a genesis, to a genesis, to a genesis...still...it did make me laugh; for which I'm grateful
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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Oct 17 12.56pm | |
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Originally posted by Lyons550
The real point being if you look far enough back you can contrive any spurious link you wish...there's always a genesis, to a genesis, to a genesis...still...it did make me laugh; for which I'm grateful Well they did love a bit of seig-heil'ing did the N F as well as some homosexual activity. So let's be kind and call them the receivers of Nazism not the givers.
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Lyons550 Shirley 23 Oct 17 1.10pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8 Well they did love a bit of seig-heil'ing did the N F as well as some homosexual activity. So let's be kind and call them the receivers of Nazism not the givers.
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tome Inner Tantalus Time. 23 Oct 17 2.42pm | |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
I was around then. The churches were not packed, people were perhaps more neighbourly. Yes, there was a great deal of disquiet regarding immigration. People resented having their localities transformed by people of different culture, language, religion and race. Even then white-flight was common. The majority of people supported the analysis of the situation of the MP, Enoch Powell. So back then multi-culturalism was as much a failure as it is now. I think the issue could well be to do with the 'transformation' of communities rather than immigration in general. Seems to me that a cause of the 'disquiet' you cite is the lack of certainty as people move. In many parts of the country people have been much more mobile over the last half century or so I think - that means internally as much as internationally. The effect is break ties that had existed and disrupt habitual ways of engaging with people. That's difficult for anyone, as it adds a degree of stress to day to day interactions. I suspect it's more about these changes, and the immigrants are just the most visual symbol of the change, so they get conflated. That's not to say there aren't genuine problems but I think those are caused more by a lack of investment in those communities rather than the extremes on either side. What do you think?
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Stirlingsays 23 Oct 17 4.14pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
No, you were propagating the myth the multi-culturalism is a relatively recent phenomenon and so, by implication, is subject to some sort of modern day success or failure test. You know full well that through trade routes etc, in Europe and Asia, cultures have been living, working and mixing together for a thousand and more years. Distinct groups. Even Conservative Iran, for example, is a multi-ethnic, multicultural society as a result of millennia of migration and conquest. Half of the population speaks Persian as their main language and the rest of speak languages drawn from Indo-European, Turkic and Semitic. Some Jewish people still live there. I can't really help it that you didn't understand....as the guy I was replying too did that I was referring to multiculturalism as a policy and political aim and narrative. Numbers and rate contributing to its failure. Countries in the past, invading and mixing with other cultures wasn't done for the purpose of assimilation but social dominance. Assimilation occurred indirectly over centuries....as happened in the Norman conquest.....after the butchering and extermination of many in the country. So, not only were you not talking about the same thing but you didn't even know that what you referred to wasn't good for those living in the host country.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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