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Anti immigration parties on the rise
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 johnfirewall  04 Sep 15 12.57pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Sep 2015 12.47pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 9.49am
Hardly a big payoff, 36.50 a week. You do realize that prior to the civil war Syria was a fairly affluent country with a fairly decent standard of living, employment, education etc not some s**ty slum hole tribal backwater.
The fact is the opportunities afforded by a liberal democratic society with free health care and education and welcoming welfare state (once you're resident) is several orders of magnitude better than what they have. Of course they want what the working class here have. Fact is, I believe the state responsibility is to house and provide an economy for, by and large, the British. The help we should give should be in helping maintain camps and the fight against IS. This country is already spending considerable cash through the UN in helping Syria. I have suggested terms by which I'd agree with certain more asylum entrants......But I'm very aware of the pressure applied by those who don't really care about the disaster of housing we already have. It took approximately 3 minutes for someone on my Facebook to divert the focus from migrants to the UK poor once it had been announced that we'd take more.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.26pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Sep 2015 12.41pm
Quote Kermit8 at 04 Sep 2015 8.46am
Or....those of a self-centred, mean-spirited, somewhat ruthless, emotionally stunted, unkind, non-generous persuasion now have nothing in common with the UK and the British sense of fair play having been caressed a bit too much by far-right politics.
You can keep stacking them in.....You will all love it.....I bet you won't go back though Kermy.....I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on that. You could get a job up there dealing with their public relations. I think the only really fair solution is to try to distribute them evenly, and focus towards areas which haven't seen high levels of immigration from the EU etc - I'd say mostly Upper working class and traditional Middle class areas. Largely because I'm fed up of hearing people I grew up with in Henley complaining about Immigration that they don't have.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 04 Sep 15 1.26pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.28pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Sep 2015 12.55pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 12.40pm
Women are just as capable of shooting people as men, and in a pinch, kids can support a war effort and women can fulfill a logistical support role. Problem usually is getting hold of weapons, ammo, training, finding allies etc. In a war between nations, its easy to sign up and join. In a civil war you can't just turn up at the recruiting office. Even the act of travelling to a place where you can join a faction, is likely to end up with you being murdered or pressganged by factions between you and them. The risk of death in a boat, or the certainty of death. I would guess that the latest wave of refugees has been driven by changes in the conflict. So far 3m people have fled from Syria, and another 6m are displaced within Syria.
Most of them could very easily join the Kurds from Turkey......There's no real risk there. As for women.....You are talking about young single women....Not women with children like I was. Refugees are in in all the border countries with Syria, to the tune of 3m, about 5% of that so far making their way into the EU.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.32pm |
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Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge. I don't think that's in any dispute, there is a genocidal, four way civil war raging in the country, that has only escalated in the last four years, to the point that its down to the main players (who once dominant will likely as not then turn against each other). The situation in the Lebanon went on for 20 years. There is no thin edge of the wedge about it, we should already be preparing for the capacity to deal with this problem over a decade (rather than responding to a problem only when were forced to).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 04 Sep 15 1.40pm |
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Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.41pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Sep 2015 12.49pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 12.44pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Sep 2015 12.35pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 12.02pm
Er, that pretty much describes how politics works. What is good for the country, isn't really relevant when dealing with refugees, its about what is right. Good of the country, when the f**k did politicians ever make decisions about what is good for the country.
Who's set of moral codes are we talking about here? I talking about ethics here, arguably its a ethical right to do something to prevent suffering if you can (or at least its more ethical than to do nothing and absolve yourself of responsibility). As Plato puts it, it is better to suffer yourself than to be a cause of suffering in the world. I'd be happy for the UK to do something significant. Rather than the usual response of 'its not our problem'. The difference between ethics and morality is word play. I don't agree with 'something significant'. Let the pro immigration countries do 'something significant'. We will help around the edges. Ethics are socially generated, where as morals are internal or considered inherent. As such the difference between the two is very significant, not just 'word play'. The UK is a pro-Immigration country. It has laws and regulations that limit immigration. It does however specifically have laws, regulations and signed to international obligations in regards to Refugees. We are a country that has a pro-immigration stance, in that we aren't anti-immigration at all. Regulation of immigration is still the pro-immigration.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 04 Sep 15 1.42pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 1.32pm
Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge. I don't think that's in any dispute, there is a genocidal, four way civil war raging in the country, that has only escalated in the last four years, to the point that its down to the main players (who once dominant will likely as not then turn against each other). The situation in the Lebanon went on for 20 years. There is no thin edge of the wedge about it, we should already be preparing for the capacity to deal with this problem over a decade (rather than responding to a problem only when were forced to). What about the next inevitable crisis and the next after that ?
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 04 Sep 15 1.50pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 1.42pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 1.32pm
Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge. I don't think that's in any dispute, there is a genocidal, four way civil war raging in the country, that has only escalated in the last four years, to the point that its down to the main players (who once dominant will likely as not then turn against each other). The situation in the Lebanon went on for 20 years. There is no thin edge of the wedge about it, we should already be preparing for the capacity to deal with this problem over a decade (rather than responding to a problem only when were forced to). What about the next inevitable crisis and the next after that ? Absolutely. Edited by Willo (04 Sep 2015 1.55pm)
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.56pm |
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Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 1.40pm
Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge.
Actually, this isn't true at all, provided we change the ruling on economic and working migration. If we do, its perfectly achievable. Last year, there were 24,914 asylum applications. That's actually less than the number of people who emigrate from the UK each year (323,000 last year). So its perfectly sustainable The highest ever recorded Asylum application level was 2002, when 84,193 people applied for asylum. Success rates on Asylum are 41% of applications being granted. So in terms of Asylum we have a very large capacity to adjust. UK migration has never been about Refugees and Asylum, economic and EU zone migration is where the problems may lie. 42% of migration to the UK is from the EU zone, only five percent is from Asylum (and we're the 5th biggest accepter of Asylum in the UK). The problem of the UK isn't Asylum, even if we'd accepted all 84193 people in 2002, it would still have been a net loss on the number of people who left the UK that year. What we need to do, is restrict EU working migration and working visas into the UK, which are used by companies to drive down wages. Been saying that since the whole thing was introduced. But Asylum hasn't ever really been a problem for the UK.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 04 Sep 15 1.56pm |
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Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.50pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 1.42pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 1.32pm
Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge. I don't think that's in any dispute, there is a genocidal, four way civil war raging in the country, that has only escalated in the last four years, to the point that its down to the main players (who once dominant will likely as not then turn against each other). The situation in the Lebanon went on for 20 years. There is no thin edge of the wedge about it, we should already be preparing for the capacity to deal with this problem over a decade (rather than responding to a problem only when were forced to). What about the next inevitable crisis and the next after that ? Absolutely. Edited by Willo (04 Sep 2015 1.55pm) See post above as to why that isn't true.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| npn Crowborough 04 Sep 15 2.04pm |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 04 Sep 2015 1.56pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 1.40pm
Quote Willo at 04 Sep 2015 1.26pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 04 Sep 2015 12.45pm
How many refugees will come and when will this crisis abate ? The bottom line is that the World as it is now will produce an almost endless stream of refugees and migrants seeking refuge or a better life in Europe. How many can we or should we take ? ? The Government has announced that it will take in more refugees from Syria. The problem is that as things evolve there will be cries for more and from more places. This could be the thin end of the wedge.
Actually, this isn't true at all, provided we change the ruling on economic and working migration. If we do, its perfectly achievable. Last year, there were 24,914 asylum applications. That's actually less than the number of people who emigrate from the UK each year (323,000 last year). So its perfectly sustainable The highest ever recorded Asylum application level was 2002, when 84,193 people applied for asylum. Success rates on Asylum are 41% of applications being granted. So in terms of Asylum we have a very large capacity to adjust. UK migration has never been about Refugees and Asylum, economic and EU zone migration is where the problems may lie. 42% of migration to the UK is from the EU zone, only five percent is from Asylum (and we're the 5th biggest accepter of Asylum in the UK). The problem of the UK isn't Asylum, even if we'd accepted all 84193 people in 2002, it would still have been a net loss on the number of people who left the UK that year. What we need to do, is restrict EU working migration and working visas into the UK, which are used by companies to drive down wages. Been saying that since the whole thing was introduced. But Asylum hasn't ever really been a problem for the UK.
You're comparing asylum seekers against emigrants, completely disregarding number of non-asylum immigrants who come over every year
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