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becky over the moon 25 Oct 15 8.27am | |
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Quote serial thriller at 24 Oct 2015 12.54pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 24 Oct 2015 11.17am
Stirling, it's myopic to suggest that 'the left' isn't doing anything with regards to the ridiculous prostitution laws. On a global level, lots of anti-slavery action groups focus primarily on the sex trade, and counselling and refuges have been set up by a lot of left-leaning and feminist groups in an attempt to help sex workers. Nationally, a lot of grass roots feminist and LGBT work has been done in a similar vein. Cuts to local government funding have also had a massive effect on the ability of local councils to provide support to women's refuges, and of course a lot of prostitutes in this country are either here illegally, thus are given no citizen's rights, or are homeless, drug dependent etc. I also think grouping gay rights alongside drug and prostitution laws is a bit ridiculous. Homosexuality isn't a black market commodity, its a sexual orientation rooted in our biology which around 10/20% of human beings possess. Prostitution on the other hand, is often - but not by any means exclusively - a symptom of a society with high levels of poverty or inequality. The same can be said of drug addiction and usage. I would agree with you though, criminalising these practices does a hell of a lot more harm than good. Utter rot! Prostitution is driven 100% by market forces - and the largest part of that is, and always has been, that men want sex.... so it is provided by women. Poverty and inequality have little if anything to do with it - it's not called 'the oldest profession' for nothing!
A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers |
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Stirlingsays 25 Oct 15 11.13am | |
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Low poverty would reduce prostitution and drug addiction but it wouldn't get rid of them. The supply and demand argument put by Becky has truth to it, plus the reality that prostitution may be a choice that women make for many different reasons. I believe that a grown up society stays away from consensual sex.....A society that still locks up brass has its priorities wrong. I agree that the focus should be on the sex slave element and exploitation. Any situation where a woman hasn't made this choice for herself. Any woman who decides....for whatever reason to go this way should be taxed like a normal worker. They should have the option of a safe working environment that vets its customers.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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elgrande bedford 25 Oct 15 11.31am | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 Oct 2015 11.13am
Low poverty would reduce prostitution and drug addiction but it wouldn't get rid of them. The supply and demand argument put by Becky has truth to it, plus the reality that prostitution may be a choice that women make for many different reasons. I believe that a grown up society stays away from consensual sex.....A society that still locks up brass has its priorities wrong. I agree that the focus should be on the sex slave element and exploitation. Any situation where a woman hasn't made this choice for herself. Any woman who decides....for whatever reason to go this way should be taxed like a normal worker. They should have the option of a safe working environment that vets its customers.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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serial thriller The Promised Land 25 Oct 15 12.32pm | |
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Quote becky at 25 Oct 2015 8.27am
Quote serial thriller at 24 Oct 2015 12.54pm
I also think grouping gay rights alongside drug and prostitution laws is a bit ridiculous. Homosexuality isn't a black market commodity, its a sexual orientation rooted in our biology which around 10/20% of human beings possess. Prostitution on the other hand, is often - but not by any means exclusively - a symptom of a society with high levels of poverty or inequality. The same can be said of drug addiction and usage. I would agree with you though, criminalising these practices does a hell of a lot more harm than good. Utter rot! Prostitution is driven 100% by market forces - and the largest part of that is, and always has been, that men want sex.... so it is provided by women. Poverty and inequality have little if anything to do with it - it's not called 'the oldest profession' for nothing!
As for your last comment, this is a very interesting fact page based on prostitution in the UK: [Link] As it reads, '74% of women involved in prostitution cited poverty, the need to pay household expenses and support their children, as a primary motivator for entering sex work.' These are women who have almost all experienced domestic abuse, rape, are highly drug dependent, have almost no protection, and are incredibly likely to be murdered. They aren't doing it for pleasure, they are doing it either to fund their drug habits or to pay the bills. Obviously it's very difficult to collect data on these things, as the women involved are often very hesitant to come forward, but there's fairly good evidence that prostitution is increasing in the UK, particularly among young single women who are being disproportionately affected by the government's welfare cuts, and female students who are struggling to find part-time work as companies are cutting back.
If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4 |
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elgrande bedford 25 Oct 15 2.18pm | |
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Quote serial thriller at 25 Oct 2015 12.32pm
Quote becky at 25 Oct 2015 8.27am
Quote serial thriller at 24 Oct 2015 12.54pm
I also think grouping gay rights alongside drug and prostitution laws is a bit ridiculous. Homosexuality isn't a black market commodity, its a sexual orientation rooted in our biology which around 10/20% of human beings possess. Prostitution on the other hand, is often - but not by any means exclusively - a symptom of a society with high levels of poverty or inequality. The same can be said of drug addiction and usage. I would agree with you though, criminalising these practices does a hell of a lot more harm than good. Utter rot! Prostitution is driven 100% by market forces - and the largest part of that is, and always has been, that men want sex.... so it is provided by women. Poverty and inequality have little if anything to do with it - it's not called 'the oldest profession' for nothing!
As for your last comment, this is a very interesting fact page based on prostitution in the UK: [Link] As it reads, '74% of women involved in prostitution cited poverty, the need to pay household expenses and support their children, as a primary motivator for entering sex work.' These are women who have almost all experienced domestic abuse, rape, are highly drug dependent, have almost no protection, and are incredibly likely to be murdered. They aren't doing it for pleasure, they are doing it either to fund their drug habits or to pay the bills. Obviously it's very difficult to collect data on these things, as the women involved are often very hesitant to come forward, but there's fairly good evidence that prostitution is increasing in the UK, particularly among young single women who are being disproportionately affected by the government's welfare cuts, and female students who are struggling to find part-time work as companies are cutting back.
always a Norwood boy, where ever I live. |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 25 Oct 15 2.20pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 Oct 2015 11.13am
Low poverty would reduce prostitution and drug addiction but it wouldn't get rid of them. The supply and demand argument put by Becky has truth to it, plus the reality that prostitution may be a choice that women make for many different reasons. I believe that a grown up society stays away from consensual sex.....A society that still locks up brass has its priorities wrong. I agree that the focus should be on the sex slave element and exploitation. Any situation where a woman hasn't made this choice for herself. Any woman who decides....for whatever reason to go this way should be taxed like a normal worker. They should have the option of a safe working environment that vets its customers. I think you have to see prostitution as being several different motivations. These tend to be economic, although the problem has never really been so much with prostitution but the exploitation of sex workers in society and their 'ostracisation' from social protection (forcing sex workers closer to organised crime). In the rise of sex trafficking fear also plays a serious role (both of the traffickers and of the authorities - who are often interested in only the conviction of the traffickers, not the future of the girls trafficked). Its unlikely that many sex workers make a deliberate choice, to do what they do (but that's by no means true of all those in the trade), but they all do make an economic one. Its not a career of initial choice, the lure is always the economic factor.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Percy of Peckham Eton Mess 25 Oct 15 2.27pm | |
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Quote johnno42000 at 24 Oct 2015 1.42pm
Is the reason it isn't legalised because there is a secret thrill for MP's that they may be caught and punished. Don't be silly ...they are all part of the "Establishment" and therefore above the law!!!
Denial is not just a river in Egypt! |
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Stirlingsays 25 Oct 15 8.03pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Oct 2015 2.20pm
I think you have to see prostitution as being several different motivations. These tend to be economic, although the problem has never really been so much with prostitution but the exploitation of sex workers in society and their 'ostracisation' from social protection (forcing sex workers closer to organised crime). In the rise of sex trafficking fear also plays a serious role (both of the traffickers and of the authorities - who are often interested in only the conviction of the traffickers, not the future of the girls trafficked). Its unlikely that many sex workers make a deliberate choice, to do what they do (but that's by no means true of all those in the trade), but they all do make an economic one. Its not a career of initial choice, the lure is always the economic factor.
Most of us have bills to pay, many of us don't do our ideal jobs. In situations where a person has chosen the sex trade (without compulsion) we should always keep our minds open as too their particular motivations It's important not to stereotype (not that you have) with people who choose the sex trade....Sometimes they aren't defenseless, poor innocents who have no other options and need to be protected....But in many instances they are......For others, the reason why can be a sliding scale.....I imagine. Some will see the amount they can earn an hour compared to cleaning toilets or working in Tescos and draw the obvious conclusions or view it as an easy wage top up or a way to pay off a debt.....Many don't think of the risks....Or have addictions or shock horror for some a high sex drive does factor in...The list of reasons is probably endless. Obviously there is a crime/drugs problem linked to this and this is entirely the fault of the criminalising of the sex trade. The law should be working to keep these workers safe. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Oct 2015 8.09pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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topcat Holmesdale / Surbiton 25 Oct 15 8.08pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 24 Oct 2015 7.39pm
As usual Jamie you manage to educate me on something. The sooner we grow up about sex in our western culture the better for most of us......It's a hangover from religion that hurts plenty of people. Completely agree.
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses. |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Oct 15 12.06pm | |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 25 Oct 2015 8.03pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 25 Oct 2015 2.20pm
I think you have to see prostitution as being several different motivations. These tend to be economic, although the problem has never really been so much with prostitution but the exploitation of sex workers in society and their 'ostracisation' from social protection (forcing sex workers closer to organised crime). In the rise of sex trafficking fear also plays a serious role (both of the traffickers and of the authorities - who are often interested in only the conviction of the traffickers, not the future of the girls trafficked). Its unlikely that many sex workers make a deliberate choice, to do what they do (but that's by no means true of all those in the trade), but they all do make an economic one. Its not a career of initial choice, the lure is always the economic factor.
Most of us have bills to pay, many of us don't do our ideal jobs. In situations where a person has chosen the sex trade (without compulsion) we should always keep our minds open as too their particular motivations It's important not to stereotype (not that you have) with people who choose the sex trade....Sometimes they aren't defenseless, poor innocents who have no other options and need to be protected....But in many instances they are......For others, the reason why can be a sliding scale.....I imagine. Some will see the amount they can earn an hour compared to cleaning toilets or working in Tescos and draw the obvious conclusions or view it as an easy wage top up or a way to pay off a debt.....Many don't think of the risks....Or have addictions or shock horror for some a high sex drive does factor in...The list of reasons is probably endless. Obviously there is a crime/drugs problem linked to this and this is entirely the fault of the criminalising of the sex trade. The law should be working to keep these workers safe. Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Oct 2015 8.09pm) I agree with you entirely, and not only does a legal trade keep the workers safe, it generates taxable income, protects the clients and allows the 'trade' to be moved from the street. The workers also would benefit much more from outreach services and such to assist them, provide skill training and services aimed at breaking them out of the sex trade. Also by using a centralized authority either via the Police or councils, to run and licence brothels and sex workers, you can then really focus on those who run exploitative and abusive operations, such as human trafficking, exploitative pimps, protect the workers from violent punters with security measures (and it encourages the girls to go to the police).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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johnfirewall 26 Oct 15 12.21pm | |
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There's a difference between decriminalisation and having legitimate authorised services. You can already pay an eastern European gangster for sex with a prostitute thus funding the trafficking of more girls, and other organised crime without getting nicked. Maybe the government should run the railways and knocking shops.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Oct 15 12.51pm | |
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Quote johnfirewall at 26 Oct 2015 12.21pm
There's a difference between decriminalisation and having legitimate authorised services. You can already pay an eastern European gangster for sex with a prostitute thus funding the trafficking of more girls, and other organised crime without getting nicked. Maybe the government should run the railways and knocking shops. You could have a 'Buffet and a Muffing' carriage on each train, to while away the long delays. I seriously have never understood the mentality of governments trying to enforce morality over human nature. Things like sex and getting high are so very much ingrained in many peoples nature, that all the laws achieve is to criminalise people who otherwise would never come into contact with the Criminal Justice System. Getting a criminal record for a handjob from a hooker could quite easily mean you'd lose your job (as it would potentially mean a criminal record) and could even be treated as a 'sex offence' (if it was pursued as public indecency), putting you on the sex offenders registry. We're still tied to a strange middle classed puritanical influence, that simply demands that 'one moral code fits all', and all it achieves is further damaging parts of society, who never come into real contact with it (other than through religion maybe).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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