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TheJudge 12 Jun 15 3.25pm | |
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I would suggest that it is easy to take one statement he has made and criticise it fairly or unfairly, but religious doctrine certainly would not stand up as well to that sort of scrutiny would it.
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Ouzo Dan Behind you 12 Jun 15 3.40pm | |
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Quote npn at 12 Jun 2015 3.20pm
Quote Ouzo Dan at 12 Jun 2015 3.16pm
Quote npn at 12 Jun 2015 2.19pm
Quote Ouzo Dan at 12 Jun 2015 2.15pm
Quote npn at 12 Jun 2015 2.05pm
Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense.
He never said that though did he? "Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice." Sounds pretty categorical. Happy to give you this round but his opinion was expanded on, think about how much of a disadvantage a child born with downs faces vs a child without, this is the crux of Dawkins argument in a majority of cases people with downs are pushed to the fringes of society & forgotten about.
I could even cope with his personal decision to abort, but to claim it's immoral not to seems to go against nature's way.
Evolution is made up of something like 99% genetic failures & 1% success. It's the human race's responsibility to fit people with downs & those with other genetic diseases into society until such a time happens then yes it's begs the question of if it is morally the right thing to do or not, certainly it comes down to how much of a good life you can guarantee for that child.
The mountains are calling & I must go. |
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SirPeanut Keston 12 Jun 15 3.43pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Jun 2015 2.56pm
I quite like him and read a lot of his books. Personally I don't really rate the God Delusion that much, he's clumsy with his theological and philosophical arguments and relies to heavily on semantics and rhetoric; falling into the same mistaken approach that Creationists do with evolution - they clearly don't understand what they're arguing against, and end up arguing against something entirely different. Now the 'Blind Watchmaker' makes the arguments much better, by sticking to a subject he clearly understands and you won't find a much better primer on Evolution than this and the 'Selfish Gene'. In fact the Blind Watchmaker is one of the best defenses of Evolution ever produced. Creationism doesn't need evidence to disprove, it immediately fail due to it being an attempt to present unscientific theory as a scientific theory. Similarly with intelligent design (Dawkins and many others have long since proved these to be unscientific and thus invalid science theories). Unfortunately Dawkins seems to have embraced the role of poster boy for atheism, and has increasingly found himself drawn into a slagging match, rather than argument. His initial issues with religion were valid, his later decent into a more adversarial atheist, undermine what was a valid argument.
I think he is just getting a bit frustrated in his old age with the ignorance of the religious arguments put to him continually. Must feel like he has been banging his head against a wall for years.
There are two kinds of person in this world: |
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TheJudge 12 Jun 15 3.45pm | |
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Quote SirPeanut at 12 Jun 2015 3.43pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Jun 2015 2.56pm
I quite like him and read a lot of his books. Personally I don't really rate the God Delusion that much, he's clumsy with his theological and philosophical arguments and relies to heavily on semantics and rhetoric; falling into the same mistaken approach that Creationists do with evolution - they clearly don't understand what they're arguing against, and end up arguing against something entirely different. Now the 'Blind Watchmaker' makes the arguments much better, by sticking to a subject he clearly understands and you won't find a much better primer on Evolution than this and the 'Selfish Gene'. In fact the Blind Watchmaker is one of the best defenses of Evolution ever produced. Creationism doesn't need evidence to disprove, it immediately fail due to it being an attempt to present unscientific theory as a scientific theory. Similarly with intelligent design (Dawkins and many others have long since proved these to be unscientific and thus invalid science theories). Unfortunately Dawkins seems to have embraced the role of poster boy for atheism, and has increasingly found himself drawn into a slagging match, rather than argument. His initial issues with religion were valid, his later decent into a more adversarial atheist, undermine what was a valid argument.
I think he is just getting a bit frustrated in his old age with the ignorance of the religious arguments put to him continually. Must feel like he has been banging his head against a wall for years. I actually agree but the God Delusion is a good place to start IMO.
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EaglesEaglesEagles 12 Jun 15 4.20pm | |
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Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense. The Guardian article's really positive towards Dawkins. I'll just go out there and say that I think Dawkins is awful and his operation as champion of a wholly rationalist approach is harmful and heartless. My main reservation is to do with his aggression. As a biologist he has every right to promote evolution as an academic and criticise religion. Like Pope Francis says, one should not provoke or be insulting to people of faith. It shows a lack of respect. I'm not saying that atheists in general are like this but Dawkins is and I think he is undignified. That is pretty much the basis for my dislike of him. I have not mentioned the down syndrome incident specifically because it is all tied up with this principle of disrespect and hate. Is there disrespect and hate among some religious people? Of course and it's dreadful, but Dawkins is just as bad. If you go so far as to agree with his standpoint, attitude and the way he addresses religious persons then you are also filled with hate and lack compassion. An interest in his academic publications about biology is different. Sorry to have bombed the Dawkins party. I know I haven't read his works but I've read his tweets, articles and seen extended video footage of him. I think that's quite enough to make a judgement. Edited by EaglesEaglesEagles (12 Jun 2015 4.22pm)
I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry. |
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reborn 12 Jun 15 4.35pm | |
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Quote TheJudge at 12 Jun 2015 1.53pm
In my opinion, he deserves hero status. The God Delusion is a must read. This headline is typical Guardian nonsense.
Fine, don't believe it, but why spend your life so aggressively demanding others agree with you.
My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs |
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 4.39pm | |
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Dawkins is a brilliant scientist and writer, understandably jaded after years of trying to educate imbeciles who have no intent to listen. It must be extremely frustrating to be repeatedly dragged into arguments where your life's work is undermined by people who don't even begin to understand it.
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derben 12 Jun 15 4.55pm | |
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The funniest thing with Dawkins is how much he actually hates something that he says he does not believe exists.
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ChuFukka 12 Jun 15 5.03pm | |
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Quote derben at 12 Jun 2015 4.55pm
The funniest thing with Dawkins is how much he actually hates something that he says he does not believe exists.
His feelings towards all deities are dismissive, although of course he has opinions on their behaviour within their own mythologies (i.e. 'I don't believe in your God, but given all the horrific stuff he did in the Bible, I do not view the character of Yahweh as a very sympathetic one'). What he actively dislikes is organised religion and the effects it has on people, governments and society, which are very real. Edited by ChuFukka (12 Jun 2015 5.05pm)
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SirPeanut Keston 12 Jun 15 5.14pm | |
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He also hates the close minded 'non-thinking' of the average religious person and the child indoctrination that occurs in religious families. As do I.
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derben 12 Jun 15 5.43pm | |
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EaglesEaglesEagles 12 Jun 15 5.53pm | |
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Quote SirPeanut at 12 Jun 2015 5.14pm
He also hates the close minded 'non-thinking' of the average religious person and the child indoctrination that occurs in religious families. As do I. Well if you would like to stereotype religious people by saying their (non-)thinking is close minded then fine. Personally I think that labelling people casually in this way is a bit of an obstinate means of making a point, a bit like your stereotype of what you see as the average religious person actually. And as for indoctrination, I would contest that what a religious parent teaches his/her child is not indoctrination if it refers to their own religious beliefs. I think it's absurd to believe that parents should respond to many inquisitive questions a child might ask which could involve their religious beliefs with "there are many opinions, you have to discover your own for yourself". That's the sort of attitude that totalitarian regimes looked to promote and remove children from the influence of their families. Every single person has the right to teach their children what they believe if it does not conflict with the law. I believe that atheists should be able to teach children their views. Why should an atheist be more righteous in being separate from the label of indoctrination (as you not I term it). There is no way that one can categorically deny that God exists and started the universe, even as a bland Prime Mover figure. I therefore reject the fact that scientific reason is absolute knowledge and anything which disagrees with that sphere of study is automatically nonsense. As for Dawkins' hate. I know it sounds ridiculous to you but for things that don't have a full or even partial consensus of explanation within science, I see this as a reason to at least doubt the basic existential analysis of the universe and humankind that Dawkins promotes. I'm referring to the existence of consciousness and its mysterious nature outside the non-starter explanations of neuroscience and chemical reactions. So-called miracles too which have been investigated by groups like NASA and cannot be scientifically explained. Dawkins uses probability theory that there was a 3000000000/1 chance that X might happen and on this so-called miraculous occasion it did. He relies purely on logic and sticks by it, almost admirably. The fact that there is reasonable doubt for me does not mean that people should automatically reject science and reason. On the contrary. However, what I do reject is the idea that there is not a reasonable basis, even with science and it's contributions for people to doubt it and form religious opinions even with the extent of the evolutionary and Big Bang theories out there.
I ain't got nuthin' funny to say. Sorry. |
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