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Greece on the Edge

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Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 07 Jul 15 6.13pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 5.50pm

Quote nickgusset at 07 Jul 2015 5.43pm

Quote DanH at 07 Jul 2015 5.27pm


WAGU has been bang on the money for me throughout this thread. Pretty sure he's from an economics background as well. It shows.


Unlike our current chancellor...

Strange how the greeks jettisoned one of the foremost economists of our time (according to some american paper can't remember which)after the no vote. Perhap's they'll wheel him out to help see through the change back to the drachma.

Don't forget though, the coalition got through on a pro eu anti austerity ticket, so my guess is that the leadership will try and saty in the EU.

Irony is that Greece were one of many nations to wipe off Germany's debt in the fifties - shame the Germans won't reciprocate.

Also worth remembering that Syriza did not create the mess Greece are in. Some seem to forget this!


I pointed out to you earlier that Greece voted on the London Agreement, but weren't a creditor - that was the US, the French and GB.


Taking all the infrastructure the Germans destroyed, the loans the Greek central bank was forced to make to Berlin, the outright theft of gold reserves, to the systematic removal of crops and livestock, I'd say Greece was a teeny weeny bit of a creditor, wouldn't you?

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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DanH Flag SW2 07 Jul 15 6.14pm Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

This extract from Yanis Varoufakis' book was published on the Guardian website yesterday.

[Link]

Extrememly interesting and highlights the hypocrisy at play. Also shows why everyone else around that negotiationg table hated him.

Worth pointing out that he is a very highly regarded economist as well, not just a politician (or an ex one, anyway).

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 07 Jul 15 6.19pm

Quote DanH at 07 Jul 2015 6.14pm

This extract from Yanis Varoufakis' book was published on the Guardian website yesterday.

[Link]

Extrememly interesting and highlights the hypocrisy at play. Also shows why everyone else around that negotiationg table hated him.

Worth pointing out that he is a very highly regarded economist as well, not just a politician (or an ex one, anyway).

He is staunchly anti europe, which is another reason cited for his exit on sunday. Some say he couldn't work with Syriza as they're keen to carry out the stay in the eu mandate on which they were elected.

 

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Lucas Oliver Flag Miles away 07 Jul 15 7.14pm Send a Private Message to Lucas Oliver Add Lucas Oliver as a friend

This is a game of chicken, if one of them doesn't back down they're both going to sustain serious damage. Syriza won't blink though methinks. Not a hope of repaying an upcoming €3.5bn payment.

 


Nope it's not my name

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Lucas Oliver Flag Miles away 07 Jul 15 7.20pm Send a Private Message to Lucas Oliver Add Lucas Oliver as a friend

Fairplay to this guy though at least attempted to sort the problem. 0.1 percent

[Link]

 


Nope it's not my name

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Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 07 Jul 15 7.31pm Send a Private Message to Cucking Funt Add Cucking Funt as a friend

Quote Lucas Oliver at 07 Jul 2015 7.14pm

This is a game of chicken, if one of them doesn't back down they're both going to sustain serious damage. Syriza won't blink though methinks. Not a hope of repaying an upcoming €3.5bn payment.


Exactly. They've got the troika (and the Germans) by the balls. If you've got f*ck all to lose, the only way is up.

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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serial thriller Flag The Promised Land 07 Jul 15 10.53pm Send a Private Message to serial thriller Add serial thriller as a friend

Quote Hoof Hearted at 07 Jul 2015 5.03pm

Quote serial thriller at 07 Jul 2015 11.33am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 06 Jul 2015 5.09pm

Behave yourself.

I gave the examples of the Olympics and the Metro system as examples of Greek corruption and incompetence....are you suggesting they didn't have an effect? Have you been to Greece and witnessed the pace of life there? They need a collective rocket up their arses to become competitive and profitable instead of granting ridiculously early retirement ages with outrageously generous benefit levels.

I couldn't care less about Stirling's views and WAGU (whoever she is?).

I look at situations and make my own mind up and quite obviously Greece have fcuked up bigtime here.

Luckily for us, there are enough sane credible people to keep out people like you, Miliband and Balls from creating the same sh1t here.

You are so out of touch you believe that Corbyn will be a good leader for Labour and therefore a prospective Prime Minister.... get a grip man.


Firstly - and this is the biggest point I want to make here Hoof - you can attack me for being left wing. You can attack me for being a socially liberal, PC-brigade Marxist. But don't ever, ever, put me in the same category as Milliband and Balls again. They are almost as far gone from my political ideology as you are Hoof, and I hold them in total contempt.

Anyhow. On your first point, I'm going to have to tell you some facts, and I know you won't like them, but you have to deal with them because they're true. The Olympics cost Greece 9 billion euros. Their rail project cost around 1.5 billion, but let's be generous and factor in maintenance and ticket receipt losses, and say it's cost them about 5 billion. That still accounts for about 4% of Greek debt, which has nearly doubled as a percentage of GDP since 2007. It would be better to look at the excessive military spending Greece took part in before 2007 for an example of public debt accumulation, but most of that came from a corrupted government, and pressure from European nations like Germany and the UK who forced Greece in to buying frivolous submarines, arms etc.

After the financial crash, European banks lent Greece money so its own banks could continue to operate, but with very high interest rates. To repay these loans, Greece borrowed short term loans from the Troika, and saw one of the biggest economic depressions ever experienced by a developed nation with massive cuts to pensions, public infrastructure, as well as record high unemployment levels. Thus, while of course public overspending played a role in Greek debt, for you to focus on that instead of, say, the monetary union, or the debt pressure placed on the banks, or the bankers themselves, is not only to miss the elephant in the room, it's to be unaware of a herd of elephants in a room painted in sparkly colours farting directly in your face.

I have been to Greece, but unlike you I sadly wasn't able to gauge the productivity of the whole nation. However, an OECD report claims Greeks are some of the most hard working people in the world, working around 2000 hours a year, 700 more than the average German, and about 300 more than the average Brit. Not only does this dispell the myth that they're all lazy and feckless, it also suggests that maybe they actually earn that early retirement in many cases.

As for your last point, what exactly has that got to do with anything? Oh yeah, you're copying the tricks of the trade from your mentor Paul Dacre and his Nazi-supporting rag, going for tenuous personal slander rather than genuine intellectual debate. And you're telling me to behave.


I've never hear of Paul Dacre.... so how could he be my mentor?

My last point just sums up my opinion of you and your oddball opinions. You don't do intellectual debate you just harp on about corporations, bankers bonuses blah blah.

You are a dreamer and totally out of touch with reality just like Miliband and Balls.


Christ Hoof - I spend half an hour writing a post, then you have a go at me for not being intellectual enough! Give me a chance

Please do tell me though: do you actually believe bankers and corporations have ever done anything wrong?

 


If punk ever happened I'd be preaching the law, instead of listenin to Lydon lecture BBC4

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leggedstruggle Flag Croydon 08 Jul 15 8.02am

I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons or your properties, but and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue comes money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, I am a mischievous person. [Socrates, quoted by Plato, 'The Death of Socrates']

 


mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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kenbarr Flag Jackson Heights, Queens, New York ... 08 Jul 15 8.06am Send a Private Message to kenbarr Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add kenbarr as a friend

Quote leggedstruggle at 08 Jul 2015 8.02am

I do nothing but go about persuading you all, old and young alike, not to take thought for your persons or your properties, but and chiefly to care about the greatest improvement of the soul. I tell you that virtue is not given by money, but that from virtue comes money and every other good of man, public as well as private. This is my teaching, and if this is the doctrine which corrupts the youth, I am a mischievous person. [Socrates, quoted by Plato, 'The Death of Socrates']

This is easily the most intelligent and thoughtful post of this or any other year.


 


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since1953 Flag Maidenhead 08 Jul 15 9.17am Send a Private Message to since1953 Add since1953 as a friend

It is a desperate situation for Greece and indeed for the rest of Europe to a lesser extent. The cycle must be broken ,and I would suggest the following proposals:
1. Interest forgiveness on all debt for the time being.
2. A capital repayment "holiday" to be assessed, say 6 monthly.
3. A commitment from the richer European member states to establish new factories in Greece with the profits staying in Greece.This would involve some kind of tax benefit to those companies involved to recompense them in this regard.Not only would this help the Greek economy but would ease their unemployment situation.

 

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OknotOK Flag Cockfosters, London 08 Jul 15 9.40am Send a Private Message to OknotOK Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add OknotOK as a friend

The Greeks won't repay the full debt. There should be no question in anyone's minds now (and there shouldn't have been any question for some time).

They cannot. And they will not even if they could.

So with that in mind, Frau Merkel et al need to decide what is more important to them - being the politician who oversaw the beginning of the end for the € *and* their own taxpayers taking debt write offs for the Greeks, or being the politicans who didn't oversee the beginning of the end for the € but did see their own tax payers taking debt write offs for the Greeks.

Unfortunately there's a third option - kick the can down the road again and hope the next poor schmuck has to deal with it.

 


"It's almost like a moral decision. Except not really cos noone is going to find out," Jez, Peep Show

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chris123 Flag hove actually 08 Jul 15 9.46am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Quote Cucking Funt at 07 Jul 2015 6.13pm

Quote chris123 at 07 Jul 2015 5.50pm

Quote nickgusset at 07 Jul 2015 5.43pm

Quote DanH at 07 Jul 2015 5.27pm


WAGU has been bang on the money for me throughout this thread. Pretty sure he's from an economics background as well. It shows.


Unlike our current chancellor...

Strange how the greeks jettisoned one of the foremost economists of our time (according to some american paper can't remember which)after the no vote. Perhap's they'll wheel him out to help see through the change back to the drachma.

Don't forget though, the coalition got through on a pro eu anti austerity ticket, so my guess is that the leadership will try and saty in the EU.

Irony is that Greece were one of many nations to wipe off Germany's debt in the fifties - shame the Germans won't reciprocate.

Also worth remembering that Syriza did not create the mess Greece are in. Some seem to forget this!


I pointed out to you earlier that Greece voted on the London Agreement, but weren't a creditor - that was the US, the French and GB.


Taking all the infrastructure the Germans destroyed, the loans the Greek central bank was forced to make to Berlin, the outright theft of gold reserves, to the systematic removal of crops and livestock, I'd say Greece was a teeny weeny bit of a creditor, wouldn't you?


Different argument and not the point I was making with regard to 1953 London Agreement, East Germany was not represented at all don't forget.

Edited by chris123 (08 Jul 2015 9.49am)

Edited by chris123 (08 Jul 2015 10.04am)

 

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