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Tunisia Terrorism - It's time to get tough
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legaleagle  05 Jul 15 12.02am |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Jul 2015 11.49pm
Legal thinks a 'hearts and minds' strategy can be implemented with people who don't like us in the middle east. I'm recommending legal for instant drafting into the 'intelligence' team for this. Blimey,a recommendation from Stirling is where things really start to get frightening! Being serious (and I know you weren't), if you'd actually read my posts today rather than being on auto colonel blimp mode,I was thinking as much about within Europe including the UK as the Middle East,Africa or Asia Do you want to join the AW "hearts and minds" team? Only problem could be it requires both a heart and a mind
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 Stirlingsays 05 Jul 15 12.59am |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Jul 2015 12.02am
Quote Stirlingsays at 04 Jul 2015 11.49pm
Legal thinks a 'hearts and minds' strategy can be implemented with people who don't like us in the middle east. I'm recommending legal for instant drafting into the 'intelligence' team for this. Blimey,a recommendation from Stirling is where things really start to get frightening! Being serious (and I know you weren't), if you'd actually read my posts today rather than being on auto colonel blimp mode,I was thinking as much about within Europe including the UK as the Middle East,Africa or Asia Do you want to join the AW "hearts and minds" team? Only problem could be it requires both a heart and a mind
As long as the job came with an endless supply of JD & coke and a few saucy long legged admin assistants......Hang on I think I've signed us up for another department. To be serious though....the old 'hearts and minds' routine has been made obsolete by the Internet. No cigar nowadays. What works is trade and jobs.....That's always worked and it's something I've always supported.....But you can only do that once you have a functioning state to begin with. Sometimes war is the least bad option.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 05 Jul 15 11.03am |
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"hearts and minds" has been made no less important by the internet...arguably a lot more important given the skilled use of social media by the "opposition"... And "terrorism" doesn't equate with a nicely parcelled up conflict against a national state model.. and counter insurgency was never about conflict against a national state... Edited by legaleagle (05 Jul 2015 11.09am)
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| TheJudge 05 Jul 15 11.03am |
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Quote legaleagle at 04 Jul 2015 10.52pm
Quote TheJudge at 04 Jul 2015 6.22pm
If you are making an unbiased observation then all power to it, but what is the foundation of your observation ? Where did you acquire this seemingly solid grasp of military tactics ? A reasonable and sensible question merits a sensible response in my book. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "military" tactics.Counter-insurgency, as other posters have noted, concerns a lot more than just the purely military aspects.Bit more to it than just Stirling's a real man's a real man so lets stick it up 'em and have a real men's "fight" approach.That begun to become passe as a cure all circa post 1917-39 and more so from the early 50's onards ,but that's in keeping with Stirling's era of mind set.Stirling might be amazed to meet some of the people who deal with this "quasi psych-ops" stuff in the real world hands on,often in my experience nothing like his stereotype of a "real man",some are even women I despair of some knee jerk responses to situations like the current one. I have no particular special experience,I studied counter insurgency in the British Empire post WW2 a long time ago and have retained an interest,that's all.And through my travels and work I've been exposed to some of this stuff overseas and also to stuff re the "salafist jihadist" ideological modus operandi.Stuff you don't get from the newspapers.And as a "leftie" I was interested in theorists like Gramsci who stressed the battle for "hearts and minds" in the "battle of ideologies". As for "unbiased",of course I have biases; we all do. Very few things about this are truly objective.I think what is important to have an increased prospect of a better outcome is to try and understand the other "side" and historical roots, and not to be blind to one's "side's" own shortcomings, including historically, and after all, propaganda comes from all directions including one's own. Importantly,not to needlessly alienate and demonise those its important not to. That way,there is IMO a better chance of coming up with a coherent strategy with any prospect of success, rather than just blasting a few people from the face of the earth (however understandable it might be to wish for that at times) but alter the bigger picture and longer term not necessarily a jot.
Edited by legaleagle (04 Jul 2015 11.48pm) You are an intelligent fellow and within your rather wordy posts I get the thrust of your thinking, but really old chap surely you can see that your impression of humanity might bot really apply to all.
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| legaleagle 05 Jul 15 11.42am |
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Quote TheJudge at 05 Jul 2015 11.03am
You are an intelligent fellow and within your rather wordy posts I get the thrust of your thinking, but really old chap surely you can see that your impression of humanity might bot really apply to all. You I think miss my main point through a "tunnel-visioned" pre-programmed "left/right" response to what I'm actually saying.As I've posted previously twice,"hearts and minds" is primarily about "those not actively engaged but who might become sympathetic or already are to some degree but not engaging in violence".Its not primarily about those already actively engaged in violence. That's why "hearts and minds" is an element of counter-insurgency alongside other means,not as seemingly simplistically posited by you an alternative. Also,I've already pointed out, I'm not primarily writing just about ISIS in Syria/Iraq.I'm focused more on the generality of "violent salafist jihadist insurgency",both inside and outside Europe. You use the example of Hitler.That wasn't counter-insurgency.That was more the old-fashioned "traditional" model of conflict between nation states.Even then,our Government put a fair bit of resources,for example through BBC overseas broadcasting, into "hearts and minds";Vichy France being a good example.Counter-insurgency (which IMO the current situation is far more akin to) is a different ball game. In passing, I see you suggest perhaps dear old Adolf was perhaps "one of us". He might have been "one of you"; He sure wasn't "one of me".Quite how the systematic industrialised extermination of 6 million (separate to the millions of "war" casualties and brutality of occupation) made him a "pussycat" compared to ISIS beggars belief. You seem to suggest somehow that "hearts and minds" is appeasement as opposed to "taking it on". You couldn't be more wrong."Hearts and minds" is a core part of "taking on" an insurgency.To successfully "erase" the spread and attraction to impressionable minds of this pernicious ideology, and the violence wreaked by highly skilled proponents of it, requires a multi-faceted approach a bit more sophisticated than merely "lets blast the hell out of those we can".Afghanistan and Vietnam perhaps illustrating this proposition. If you come at things through narrow terms of reference,it will likely IMO only (to utilise your phrase) prolong the "pain".
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| TheJudge 05 Jul 15 1.08pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Jul 2015 11.42am
Quote TheJudge at 05 Jul 2015 11.03am
You are an intelligent fellow and within your rather wordy posts I get the thrust of your thinking, but really old chap surely you can see that your impression of humanity might bot really apply to all. You I think miss my main point through a "tunnel-visioned" pre-programmed "left/right" response to what I'm actually saying.As I've posted previously twice,"hearts and minds" is primarily about "those not actively engaged but who might become sympathetic or already are to some degree but not engaging in violence".Its not primarily about those already actively engaged in violence. That's why "hearts and minds" is an element of counter-insurgency alongside other means,not as seemingly simplistically posited by you an alternative. Also,I've already pointed out, I'm not primarily writing about ISIS in Syria/Iraq.I'm focused more on the generality of "violent salafist jihadist insurgency",both inside and outside Europe. You use the example of Hitler.That wasn't counter-insurgency.That was more the old-fashioned "traditional" model of conflict between nation states.Even then,our Government put a fair bit of resources,for example through BBC overseas broadcasting, into "hearts and minds";Vichy France being a good example.Counter-insurgency (which IMO the current situation is far more akin to) is a different ball game. In passing, I see you suggest perhaps dear old Adolf was more "one of us". He might have been "one of you"; He sure wasn't "one of me".Quite how the systematic industrialised extermination of 6 million (separate to the millions of "war" casualties and brutality of occupation) made him a "pussycat" compared to ISIS beggars belief. You seem to suggest somehow that "hearts and minds" is appeasement as opposed to "taking it on". You couldn't be more wrong."Hearts and minds" is a core part of "taking on" an insurgency.To successfully "erase" the spread of this pernicious ideology and the violence wreaked by highly skilled proponents of it requires a multi-faceted approach a bit more sophisticated than merely "lets blast the hell out of those we can".Afghanistan and Vietnam perhaps illustrating this proposition. If you come at things through narrow terms of reference,it will likely IMO only (to utilise your phrase) prolong the "pain".
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jul 15 1.45pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Jul 2015 11.03am
Its been made even more important by the internet..
Previous success stories related to 'hearts and minds' requires outputting.....essentially positive spins on a situation....Mild brainwashing if you will. It cannot be achieved with a ideological competitor. It becomes a waste of money when compared to say family culture. The Internet is a communication channel that can't be turned off. 'Hearts and Minds' anti radical programmes now are a waste of money....But then again the left are good at wasting other people's money on ventures they massively overstate the effectiveness of......Especially if its hard to measure. Also internally this country has tried 'hearts and minds' programmes in the Islamic community......Fat load of good its been......There is already a mainstream Islamic base in this country against radicalisation.....It's a waste of time and money and also slightly insulting to the many in Islam who battle with these idiots all the time. Edited by Stirlingsays (05 Jul 2015 1.56pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 05 Jul 15 2.56pm |
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I fear unfortunately you still completely miss the point,old son Simplistic and irrelevant digs at "the left" in the context of the counter insurgency "hearts and minds" I have been writing about reinforce this feeling. "Hearts and minds" is precisely what is an important element with an "ideological competitor",which is exactly why,as one example, The "Soviet bloc" and "the West" both put so many billions into it between say 1947-1990,both in terms of insurgencies/counter-insurgencies and generally. The internet age of course presents new challenges since you can'y simply "jam" the radio signal.But new challenges do not mean the essence of "the game" does not remain unchanged.It requires IMO rather a greater degree of sophistication,rather than simplistic (however superficially attractive) knee-jerkism. Edited by legaleagle (05 Jul 2015 3.08pm)
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| Stirlingsays 05 Jul 15 3.14pm |
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Quote legaleagle at 05 Jul 2015 2.56pm
I fear unfortunately you still completely miss the point,old son Simplistic and irrelevant digs at "the left" in the context of the counter insurgency "hearts and minds" I have been writing about reinforce this feeling. "Hearts and minds" is precisely what is an important element with an "ideological competitor",which is exactly why,as one example, The "Soviet bloc" and "the West" both put so many billions into it between say 1947-1990,both in terms of insurgencies/counter-insurgencies and generally.
I'm afraid it's you who are missing the point. Those billions were put in before the Internet age. The effectiveness of that work is highly questionable ....The Soviets were kicked out of everywhere they went. 'Hearts and Minds' has been under operation for over a decade in many programmes...Government are obsessed with it.....It doesn't work...It never really has...It's a fig leaf to the chattering classes to show them something is being down.......In reality it's a bit insulting to the majority of Muslims anyway.....They don't need to be told this. Lets repeat the point again.....You can't brainwash people when you don't have a monopoly on the information getting to them'.....Do I have to state it again? People make up their minds to do something based upon many different factors. There isn't a magic bullet....There are already massive disincentives within this society acting against a person becoming radicalised. You just don't get it.....But of course....You'd always support throwing good money after bad.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| legaleagle 05 Jul 15 8.51pm |
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And you are still carrying on down a completely different road to my overarching points, using your pre-set one dimensional GPS which took you off on a completely different route at the outset Time to jump off now for me. We're going round in circles and that's a time to reset the GPS for a different journey
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| TheJudge 05 Jul 15 10.15pm |
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Looks like you haven't won many hearts and minds on this topic Legal.
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| legaleagle 05 Jul 15 11.45pm |
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I might take failing to persuade you and Stirling et al as a given of the territory Winning hearts and minds is all about winning over the the not yet (or not yet fully)ideologically committed Judge,You and Stirling fall firmly into the ideological zealot camp in that regard in this area,so its a bit like trying to persuade an inuit to install a swimming pool for those long hot summer days! Edited by legaleagle (05 Jul 2015 11.57pm)
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