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jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Jun 15 9.16am | |
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Quote derben at 18 Jun 2015 11.06am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 18 Jun 2015 8.06am
Quote derben at 18 Jun 2015 7.28am
Quote TUX at 17 Jun 2015 10.35pm
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 10.07pm
Quote Ray in Houston at 17 Jun 2015 10.01pm
Quote derben at 17 Jun 2015 9.23pm
But if God is omnipotent, God has unlimited powers. This would include the power to create itself or even retrospectively make itself exist from eternity!
Claiming that "my God can beat up your science" does not make it so. Not saying it is my God. Just saying that if there is an omnipotent God, then God's omnipotence defeats all arguments.[/quote] What created God? As the omnipotent God has unlimited powers, ie: God can do anything, then it could have created itself.
You see why that's not scientifically acceptable though. I guess an omnipotent God could make it scientifically acceptable if that God chose to. No it couldn't, not without ceasing to exist, as it would prove faith, and obviously any deity, no matter how omnipotent, is not more powerful than the first two books of the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Jun 15 9.33am | |
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Quote TheJudge at 18 Jun 2015 1.25pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 18 Jun 2015 9.31am
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 7.22pmThis is rather applying a macro explanation to a micro system. I don't really accept that biology has the limitations of which you speak. Our very consciousness is biological/physiological and all behaviors must ultimately be biological in nature. The gene is the only thing that must survive for life to continue in it's current form. (There may only be one)
You might prefer a more fluffy interpretation, but its only man's own arrogance that allows him the luxury of delusion regarding his consciousness and his significance beyond being some animate matter. I think its more or less true, that a macro model will differ from a micro model because of the different assumptions, variables discounted and how observation and study is undertaken. However one must also account for reductionism. A degree of sentience and agency, also makes sense as a evolutionary benefit (it massively aids adaptability). I don't think we have free will, that's nonsense, but I also think that the paradims of biological science cannot function when determining individuals (simply because of the scale) and so it abstracts. Biology often refers to things we can demonstrate that are learned from our peers as hereditary, without them being genetic. I don't think this is unique to humans either, just its most pronounced, because we're humans - and that we reduce this phenomena in other mammals because its convenient to our ego. Its also not active on an autonomic scale, we react in the moment, but reflect and plan our actions out and prepair in advance by running scenarios, that allow us to adapt our reactive self. Essentially, we can, on some level, reprogram our own behavior, according to our experiences and desired outcomes. When faced in the moment we react. I understand your view point but I'm inclined to think that in the same way that technology is an extension of nature, so is the complex nature of animals,including humans. I can't separate the agency of the animal from the genetic survival mechanism.
The agency of the animal feeds into the genetic survival of the species, our survival instincts and drives are very strong, and they are improved by the capacity of agency, more than they are failed by it, because they enable us to improve our capacity for flight or fight, through learning strategies and capacity to adapt on the fly. The selfish gene isn't really controlling peoples behavior per se, but that the way our agency and biological interaction works, improves that capacity to pass on genetic material and the benefits of our agency (sort of like a meme to a gene). Of course agency is generated on a biological mechanism, through the interaction of numerous systems, and maybe illusionary, but our experience suggests that what it does is serve as a capacity to override or fine tune things stimulus-response. In terms of a mechanistic system, I don't subscribe to that - Its a modernist concept that breaks down under a post-modern scientific analysis, and a by product of laboratory bias. In reality I believe systems to be gear more towards Chaotic and fuzzy logic, than to a simple stimulus-response mechanism. Mechanistic models of nature invariable lack a suitable predictive capacity to suggest that they are true, outside of strict controls. I also would argue that all mammals, at least, have a degree of agency and self awareness, along with a capacity to learn and adapt, that agency creates. If evolution is about 'species best fitted to the environment' agency is an inevitable conclusion of any evolutionary process, as it creates the capacity for a creature to adapt its behavior to fit changes in its environment. Of course any model of agency, would appear to mechanistic, because in describing the properties of any model, the capacity of the whole is reduced to the function of its parts.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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palace_in_frogland In a broken dream 19 Jun 15 9.39am | |
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Quote Mapletree at 18 Jun 2015 3.53pm
Quote Ray in Houston at 18 Jun 2015 3.51pm
Quote TUX at 17 Jun 2015 10.35pm
What created God?
You are confusing God with Cod. So, perhaps it's not a real God, but a cod God?
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TheJudge 19 Jun 15 12.22pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 9.33am
Quote TheJudge at 18 Jun 2015 1.25pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 18 Jun 2015 9.31am
Quote TheJudge at 17 Jun 2015 7.22pmThis is rather applying a macro explanation to a micro system. I don't really accept that biology has the limitations of which you speak. Our very consciousness is biological/physiological and all behaviors must ultimately be biological in nature. The gene is the only thing that must survive for life to continue in it's current form. (There may only be one)
You might prefer a more fluffy interpretation, but its only man's own arrogance that allows him the luxury of delusion regarding his consciousness and his significance beyond being some animate matter. I think its more or less true, that a macro model will differ from a micro model because of the different assumptions, variables discounted and how observation and study is undertaken. However one must also account for reductionism. A degree of sentience and agency, also makes sense as a evolutionary benefit (it massively aids adaptability). I don't think we have free will, that's nonsense, but I also think that the paradims of biological science cannot function when determining individuals (simply because of the scale) and so it abstracts. Biology often refers to things we can demonstrate that are learned from our peers as hereditary, without them being genetic. I don't think this is unique to humans either, just its most pronounced, because we're humans - and that we reduce this phenomena in other mammals because its convenient to our ego. Its also not active on an autonomic scale, we react in the moment, but reflect and plan our actions out and prepair in advance by running scenarios, that allow us to adapt our reactive self. Essentially, we can, on some level, reprogram our own behavior, according to our experiences and desired outcomes. When faced in the moment we react. I understand your view point but I'm inclined to think that in the same way that technology is an extension of nature, so is the complex nature of animals,including humans. I can't separate the agency of the animal from the genetic survival mechanism.
The agency of the animal feeds into the genetic survival of the species, our survival instincts and drives are very strong, and they are improved by the capacity of agency, more than they are failed by it, because they enable us to improve our capacity for flight or fight, through learning strategies and capacity to adapt on the fly. The selfish gene isn't really controlling peoples behavior per se, but that the way our agency and biological interaction works, improves that capacity to pass on genetic material and the benefits of our agency (sort of like a meme to a gene). Of course agency is generated on a biological mechanism, through the interaction of numerous systems, and maybe illusionary, but our experience suggests that what it does is serve as a capacity to override or fine tune things stimulus-response. In terms of a mechanistic system, I don't subscribe to that - Its a modernist concept that breaks down under a post-modern scientific analysis, and a by product of laboratory bias. In reality I believe systems to be gear more towards Chaotic and fuzzy logic, than to a simple stimulus-response mechanism. Mechanistic models of nature invariable lack a suitable predictive capacity to suggest that they are true, outside of strict controls. I also would argue that all mammals, at least, have a degree of agency and self awareness, along with a capacity to learn and adapt, that agency creates. If evolution is about 'species best fitted to the environment' agency is an inevitable conclusion of any evolutionary process, as it creates the capacity for a creature to adapt its behavior to fit changes in its environment. Of course any model of agency, would appear to mechanistic, because in describing the properties of any model, the capacity of the whole is reduced to the function of its parts. We essentially agree on this. We only slightly disagree on the meaning of mechanistic. Surely a system sufficiently complex would look less and less like a mechanism and more chaotic ?
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jamiemartin721 Reading 19 Jun 15 12.53pm | |
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The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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TheJudge 19 Jun 15 4.27pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 20 Jun 15 7.15pm | |
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Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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TheJudge 20 Jun 15 8.04pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 Jun 2015 7.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 24 Jun 15 11.49am | |
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Quote TheJudge at 20 Jun 2015 8.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 Jun 2015 7.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
But that is what the evidence suggest, that the method of observation and measurement scale used, will affect the outcome and results; this presents the idea seen in post-modern science outlooks, that rather than constructing a view of reality, scientific methods construct a model of reality based on our observations and measurements (which actually fits better with experimental vs applied science dichotomy). Scientifically speaking there is no real basis to assume otherwise, as the chaotic and fuzzy systems present a solution to the macro vs micro scale that fits both levels, and works. Science isn't about truth, its about predictable and highly probable outcomes. The mistake of modernism was to assume that the scientist is somehow entirely objective and separated from the experimental methodology (and as we experience the world subjectively, we can never truly ever separate our bias entirely). In truth, science has never really been anything other than the construction of models of high probability over low probability. As such the Quantum and relative are both acceptable models.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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TheJudge 27 Jun 15 10.35am | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Jun 2015 11.49am
Quote TheJudge at 20 Jun 2015 8.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 Jun 2015 7.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
But that is what the evidence suggest, that the method of observation and measurement scale used, will affect the outcome and results; this presents the idea seen in post-modern science outlooks, that rather than constructing a view of reality, scientific methods construct a model of reality based on our observations and measurements (which actually fits better with experimental vs applied science dichotomy). Scientifically speaking there is no real basis to assume otherwise, as the chaotic and fuzzy systems present a solution to the macro vs micro scale that fits both levels, and works. Science isn't about truth, its about predictable and highly probable outcomes. The mistake of modernism was to assume that the scientist is somehow entirely objective and separated from the experimental methodology (and as we experience the world subjectively, we can never truly ever separate our bias entirely). In truth, science has never really been anything other than the construction of models of high probability over low probability. As such the Quantum and relative are both acceptable models.
Science stands very little chance of revealing the great mystery of existence. Human perception and the limited reach of scientific measure will always be a barrier. I hope at least that it will always remain a good topic for debate and that humanity resists the ever present danger of dark age ignorance peddled by organised religion.
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Catfish Burgess Hill 27 Jun 15 11.29am | |
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Quote TheJudge at 27 Jun 2015 10.35am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Jun 2015 11.49am
Quote TheJudge at 20 Jun 2015 8.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 Jun 2015 7.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
But that is what the evidence suggest, that the method of observation and measurement scale used, will affect the outcome and results; this presents the idea seen in post-modern science outlooks, that rather than constructing a view of reality, scientific methods construct a model of reality based on our observations and measurements (which actually fits better with experimental vs applied science dichotomy). Scientifically speaking there is no real basis to assume otherwise, as the chaotic and fuzzy systems present a solution to the macro vs micro scale that fits both levels, and works. Science isn't about truth, its about predictable and highly probable outcomes. The mistake of modernism was to assume that the scientist is somehow entirely objective and separated from the experimental methodology (and as we experience the world subjectively, we can never truly ever separate our bias entirely). In truth, science has never really been anything other than the construction of models of high probability over low probability. As such the Quantum and relative are both acceptable models.
Science stands very little chance of revealing the great mystery of existence. Human perception and the limited reach of scientific measure will always be a barrier. I hope at least that it will always remain a good topic for debate and that humanity resists the ever present danger of dark age ignorance peddled by organised religion.
Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Jun 15 11.22am | |
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Quote Catfish at 27 Jun 2015 11.29am
Quote TheJudge at 27 Jun 2015 10.35am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 24 Jun 2015 11.49am
Quote TheJudge at 20 Jun 2015 8.04pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 20 Jun 2015 7.15pm
Quote TheJudge at 19 Jun 2015 4.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 19 Jun 2015 12.53pm
The important thing with chaotic systems is that they are both at the same time chaotic and disordered (neither is dominant) what matters is the point of scale at which you interact. How we measure something, and the methodology by which we measure something, will inevitably affect our results, especially when dealing with hypothetical concepts (such as in behavior). In psychology we see this a lot, where classical research and empiricism breaks down entirely when critical qualitative methods, such as discursive and phenomenological methods are applied, even with some of the most respected and well known research.
I think that sciences create models of reality, rather than being exact representations. I suspect existence before translation through sensory data closely resembles a more 'chaotic system', and that in order to function we construct meaningful represenations of it, rather than 'experience it' as it truly is.
But that is what the evidence suggest, that the method of observation and measurement scale used, will affect the outcome and results; this presents the idea seen in post-modern science outlooks, that rather than constructing a view of reality, scientific methods construct a model of reality based on our observations and measurements (which actually fits better with experimental vs applied science dichotomy). Scientifically speaking there is no real basis to assume otherwise, as the chaotic and fuzzy systems present a solution to the macro vs micro scale that fits both levels, and works. Science isn't about truth, its about predictable and highly probable outcomes. The mistake of modernism was to assume that the scientist is somehow entirely objective and separated from the experimental methodology (and as we experience the world subjectively, we can never truly ever separate our bias entirely). In truth, science has never really been anything other than the construction of models of high probability over low probability. As such the Quantum and relative are both acceptable models.
Science stands very little chance of revealing the great mystery of existence. Human perception and the limited reach of scientific measure will always be a barrier. I hope at least that it will always remain a good topic for debate and that humanity resists the ever present danger of dark age ignorance peddled by organised religion.
Its always important to understand the limitations of an approach, otherwise you can easily end up mistaking assumptions for truth.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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