That seems to be a very out-dated reason for staying in the Europe group - the only time we have conflicts with Germany and France nowadays is on the football field. I can't see how bureaucrats who drive around in flashy cars and expensive suits in Brussels and Luxembourg help to ensure European peace.

Sorry but with respect Stirling, you are spouting b*****s.

Plenty of nuclear countries have been attacked, directly or indirectly. And when the EEC was established, none of the original members had any nuclear deterrent.

Of course trade has been an enormous help and how do you think that European trade was developed? Through the EEC.

Just because you do not like an institution (and I completely agree that the EU has massive faults), you should not use that as an excuse to make up nonsense.

Edited by SloveniaDave (03 May 2014 11.40pm)

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

Erm.....the USA, the UK, France, Russia, India, pakistan.

The nuclear deterrent may have prevented all out global war and, to that extent, it may well have been a success. But peace in Europe was primarily achieved by linking the economies of France & Germany and then by using the carrot of EU membership and then the discipline of membership to prevent other states from kicking off.

The EU now may be many things, not all of them good, but to deny that it has been a major contributor to regional stability is self-deception.

Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand!

My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.

(Member of the School of Optimism 1969-2016 inclusive)

Your point concerning that fact that nuclear countries have decided to fight in non essential conflicts that don't threaten their own state is a bit silly as you clearly understood the point I was making.

Sure, if you wish to think that EU membership has saved the world from another major European war....Then well.

What I would say is that cooperation between European states.....Which I'm in favour of anyway (even Ukip are) has helped within a wider framework of technological and global trade realities in ensuring interdependence.

The way it is presented is that the EU has stopped another war.....Well the truth is that any European model built upon cooperation and trade in our technological age would have contributed to that....Contributed, not stopped.

Us leaving the EU or the EU changing its framework to be far looser doesn't make world war more likely.

The nobel commission are absurd for giving the EU and Obama peace prizes.....So far only Obama has alluded to that.......It would have been sick but more accurate to have given it to Oppenheimer.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 May 2014 3.05pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Spot on.

The Euro is the biggest threat to Europe since fascism.

An unwieldy and undemocratic elite run the EU and are continually expanding their powers.

And crucially, no one has voted on our position within Europe for nearly forty years, during which time countless treaties have been agreed upon our behalf and have changed the landscape of this country.

I am all for infra country cooperation. I believe it is a huge shame that the Commonwealth is not a more robust and cooperative body, but the EU in its current form is not operating for the benefit of its citizens.

The sooner the people get a vote on whether we wish to remain part of or out of it the better.

We have puppet governments in Greece and Italy run by technocrats in Brussels. We have surging youth employment in Greece, Spain, France, Italy and Portugal. We have a fiscal crisis looming in France. We have the surge of true right wing loonies in Hungary, The Baltic States and other parts of Eastern Europe. Yet we are told that the EU preserves unity and promotes prosperity between nations! It's laughable.

BTW Gusset, I find the origins of TSUC fascinating. It appears they emerged from a Bob Crow supported entity called No2EU! How's about that then!

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

That you believe that a 'dangerous' agenda lies behind the single interest UKIP! The loonies in TUSC would put us into the dark ages given their vocal, yet detail free, Policy wish list. Pot. Kettle. Black.

BTW, you criticised UKIP for not having a manifesto yet as hard as I look, I cannot find a TUSC one. Please could you forward me a link to their official manifesto as I must be being stupid, or ignorant, and have missed it. Thanks.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02