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 dannyh  wherever I lay my hat....... 03 Sep 15 7.04pm |
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Quote -TUX- at 03 Sep 2015 6.47pm
Quote dannyh at 03 Sep 2015 6.10pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.01pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 5.55pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 5.45pm
You're the one who says you doubt their worth unless they stay in Syria, not me. You're arguing with yourself you plum. Again, you obviously don't understand an opposition argument. People are 'born' equal in worth.. What people became as adults.....Well.....Are you arguing that someone fighting for IS is equal in worth to an NHS nurse? I think when it comes to plums....You must be supplying a supermarket. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Sep 2015 5.56pm) You're very confused. First you state that those leaving Syria have less worth as people because they didn't stay and defend their country. Then completely unprompted you feel the need to tell me that "you are responsible for your children and not my children." Either you feel responsibility towards those in your country or you don't. With your all over the shop approach I'm not sure why you'd wish to write off others who decide to put their family first and get out of a dangerous situation.
Also your moral compass can have a bearing about how you are perceived as an adult, therefore a religious nutter going about jihadying everyone who crosses his path, is not as "valuable" as a doctor or skilled peaceful worker. Oh dear.
The surroundings they are born into is what differs, silver spoon or dirty rag, the babies or "people" all start life the same, social and economic factors change the balance of course it does. But essentially my point stands. I note you only highlighted that part of my post, I assume you must be a bitter class war fanatic ? Edited by dannyh (03 Sep 2015 7.05pm)
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| oldcodger 03 Sep 15 7.07pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 6.43pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.20pm
Nice retard comment. Classy. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 6.20pm) I don't lie about people's arguments....That's your kind of classy. If you write off the value of men that leave a war torn country with their families to find a better life and then don't like that someone may disagree with you doing so, they haven't 'lied' and it doesn't make them 'retarded'. When you then come out with stuff about you having no responsibility to others, with your kids comment, what you've clumsily and accidentally done is shine a light on the nuance of how people feel about their country and family and how best to protect everything they care about. People become torn. There is no, hero if tick box A, little worth as a person if tick box B. These are people trying to do their best situations of a magnitude we will never face, and you sit there berating them from afar. I'll point that out no matter what I'm called.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 03 Sep 15 7.08pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.43pm
Quote Tom-the-eagle at 03 Sep 2015 6.25pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.20pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 6.14pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.07pm
You said what you said. If you don't want people to highlight ludicrous sweeping statements concerning the worth of whole groups of people engage your brain in future. Thanks. I stand by everything I wrote.....Your interpretations are just pathetic deceits. You talking about brains is akin to a retarded chimp trying to pass A level physics.
Nice retard comment. Classy. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 6.20pm) What would you propose Oldcodger regarding the thousands of migrants turning up at our shores? That's for our government to decide and something that, no matter our stance, we will observe rather than participate in. What I think will happen is that there will eventually be a broader agreement across Europe to take in a certain amount per country. Possibly this will ramp up the need for a stronger push against ISIS too. How any of this will pan out who knows. Whatever happens, or doesn't, is going to disadvantage someone, of course. My primary point was though, that I don't blame people for wanting to get out and I think to an extent that there is bravery involved whether they stay or go. I certainly don't buy into this outlook that these refugees are lesser for leaving or only looking for a meal ticket.
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Sep 15 7.35pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 7.07pm
When you then come out with stuff about you having no responsibility to others, with your kids comment, what you've clumsily and accidentally done is shine a light on the nuance of how people feel about their country and family and how best to protect everything they care about. People become torn. There is no, hero if tick box A, little worth as a person if tick box B. These are people trying to do their best in terrible situations beyond those we will ever face, while you sit there judging them from afar. Call me what you like in the process, but yes I'll comment on that. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 7.09pm) Previously I simply responded to you upon the level you wished to operate on. It was you who wished to speculate upon people being plums and not having brains.....As well as previously disfiguring their position. However, this post appears to be playing the ball and not the man so fair enough. I'm very clear about how I regard men in terms of standing and fighting against extremists in Syria and those that decide to run. Yes, I do see a difference in worth. I'd rather support those that fight and I have contributed to funds towards Kobane......The Kurds are a people I respect.....Personally once the Syrian crisis is finally over I'd support a Kurdish ruled region in northern Syria....Whether Turkey like it or not. If my country was subject to invasion I'd stand and fight. Countries are only ever free because hundreds of thousands of people died fighting for that freedom. It isn't won by young men running away. I say again.....A point you haven't tackled....What about those in Syria fighting against IS....Where is their support? You are prepared to house and allow people to stay in rich western countries but what do the people standing and fighting get? All these men fighting to get into rich countries..What happens once Syria is peaceful again...They get to return to the country braver men and women fought for. Your damn right I see a difference. Your damn right I judge people over that. I made a point about self interest.....About how its natural to be interested in your own children over the interests of someone else's.....though obviously you don't wish them harm. If Syrians were sending their children or women aboard for Asylum while they fought for the future of their country I'd feel far more sympathy towards the situation......Hell, I'd take those men injured fighting IS who had been vouched for. But in most situations this is young men and young men with families. These people took their money and ran....It is what it is. My policy has been previously stated......A set number on asylum judged upon by my own government....People vouched for by those moderate groups fighting against IS and excepting anyone who willingly fought for Assad.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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-TUX-  Alphabettispaghetti 03 Sep 15 7.35pm |
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Quote dannyh at 03 Sep 2015 7.04pm
Quote -TUX- at 03 Sep 2015 6.47pm
Quote dannyh at 03 Sep 2015 6.10pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.01pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 5.55pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 5.45pm
You're the one who says you doubt their worth unless they stay in Syria, not me. You're arguing with yourself you plum. Again, you obviously don't understand an opposition argument. People are 'born' equal in worth.. What people became as adults.....Well.....Are you arguing that someone fighting for IS is equal in worth to an NHS nurse? I think when it comes to plums....You must be supplying a supermarket. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Sep 2015 5.56pm) You're very confused. First you state that those leaving Syria have less worth as people because they didn't stay and defend their country. Then completely unprompted you feel the need to tell me that "you are responsible for your children and not my children." Either you feel responsibility towards those in your country or you don't. With your all over the shop approach I'm not sure why you'd wish to write off others who decide to put their family first and get out of a dangerous situation.
Also your moral compass can have a bearing about how you are perceived as an adult, therefore a religious nutter going about jihadying everyone who crosses his path, is not as "valuable" as a doctor or skilled peaceful worker. Oh dear.
The surroundings they are born into is what differs, silver spoon or dirty rag, the babies or "people" all start life the same, social and economic factors change the balance of course it does. But essentially my point stands. I note you only highlighted that part of my post, I assume you must be a bitter class war fanatic ? Edited by dannyh (03 Sep 2015 7.05pm)
Time to move forward together. |
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| Tom-the-eagle Croydon 03 Sep 15 7.44pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.43pm
Quote Tom-the-eagle at 03 Sep 2015 6.25pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.20pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 6.14pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.07pm
You said what you said. If you don't want people to highlight ludicrous sweeping statements concerning the worth of whole groups of people engage your brain in future. Thanks. I stand by everything I wrote.....Your interpretations are just pathetic deceits. You talking about brains is akin to a retarded chimp trying to pass A level physics.
Nice retard comment. Classy. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 6.20pm) What would you propose Oldcodger regarding the thousands of migrants turning up at our shores? That's for our government to decide and something that, no matter our stance, we will observe rather than participate in. What I think will happen is that there will eventually be a broader agreement across Europe to take in a certain amount per country. Possibly this will ramp up the need for a stronger push against ISIS too. How any of this will pan out who knows. Whatever happens, or doesn't, is going to disadvantage someone, of course. My primary point was though, that I don't blame people for wanting to get out and I think to an extent that there is bravery involved whether they stay or go. I certainly don't buy into this outlook that these refugees are lesser for leaving or only looking for a meal ticket.
"It feels much better than it ever did, much more sensitive." John Wayne Bobbit |
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| oldcodger 03 Sep 15 8.02pm |
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Quote Tom-the-eagle at 03 Sep 2015 7.44pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.43pm
Quote Tom-the-eagle at 03 Sep 2015 6.25pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.20pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 6.14pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 6.07pm
You said what you said. If you don't want people to highlight ludicrous sweeping statements concerning the worth of whole groups of people engage your brain in future. Thanks. I stand by everything I wrote.....Your interpretations are just pathetic deceits. You talking about brains is akin to a retarded chimp trying to pass A level physics.
Nice retard comment. Classy. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 6.20pm) What would you propose Oldcodger regarding the thousands of migrants turning up at our shores? That's for our government to decide and something that, no matter our stance, we will observe rather than participate in. What I think will happen is that there will eventually be a broader agreement across Europe to take in a certain amount per country. Possibly this will ramp up the need for a stronger push against ISIS too. How any of this will pan out who knows. Whatever happens, or doesn't, is going to disadvantage someone, of course. My primary point was though, that I don't blame people for wanting to get out and I think to an extent that there is bravery involved whether they stay or go. I certainly don't buy into this outlook that these refugees are lesser for leaving or only looking for a meal ticket.
I have stated what I believe will happen. An approach of sharing out refugees in a more agreed manner, combined with some level of ramping up in the battle against ISIS. Beyond that I don't have a solution to offer because a solution for one country is a problem for another. From our perspective I could say 'who cares, don't agree to take any Syrians, it's someone elses problem' but is that actually a solution? There are no easy answers here.
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| oldcodger 03 Sep 15 8.25pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 7.35pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 7.07pm
When you then come out with stuff about you having no responsibility to others, with your kids comment, what you've clumsily and accidentally done is shine a light on the nuance of how people feel about their country and family and how best to protect everything they care about. People become torn. There is no, hero if tick box A, little worth as a person if tick box B. These are people trying to do their best in terrible situations beyond those we will ever face, while you sit there judging them from afar. Call me what you like in the process, but yes I'll comment on that. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 7.09pm) Previously I simply responded to you upon the level you wished to operate on. It was you who wished to speculate upon people being plums and not having brains.....As well as previously disfiguring their position. However, this post appears to be playing the ball and not the man so fair enough. I'm very clear about how I regard men in terms of standing and fighting against extremists in Syria and those that decide to run. Yes, I do see a difference in worth. I'd rather support those that fight and I have contributed to funds towards Kobane......The Kurds are a people I respect.....Personally once the Syrian crisis is finally over I'd support a Kurdish ruled region in northern Syria....Whether Turkey like it or not. If my country was subject to invasion I'd stand and fight. Countries are only ever free because hundreds of thousands of people died fighting for that freedom. It isn't won by young men running away. I say again.....A point you haven't tackled....What about those in Syria fighting against IS....Where is their support? You are prepared to house and allow people to stay in rich western countries but what do the people standing and fighting get? All these men fighting to get into rich countries..What happens once Syria is peaceful again...They get to return to the country braver men and women fought for. Your damn right I see a difference. Your damn right I judge people over that. I made a point about self interest.....About how its natural to be interested in your own children over the interests of someone else's.....though obviously you don't wish them harm. If Syrians were sending their children or women aboard for Asylum while they fought for the future of their country I'd feel far more sympathy towards the situation......Hell, I'd take those men injured fighting IS who had been vouched for. But in most situations this is young men and young men with families. These people took their money and ran....It is what it is. My policy has been previously stated......A set number on asylum judged upon by my own government....People vouched for by those moderate groups fighting against IS and excepting anyone who willingly fought for Assad.
There's little sense in leaving your wife and child without a husband or father if your situation seems futile. It's easy to suggest otherwise on a forum, but it's when you're on the ground that you can gauge the situation and make that call. We had and have the opportunity to be more robust in our opposition to ISIS. There's an element of chickens coming home to roost to this on account of us not doing so. As for the point of what about those left behind, that feeds directly into your idea of 'you take care of your children, I'll take care of mine'. You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed and that is the 'true' reality for most really. You gauge the situation and you act there and then. We can all be super heroes at a computer, harshly judging people making a journey they know they might not even survive. For supposed cowards though, it's a braver decision than any of us will ever have to make for our families.
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| -TUX- Alphabettispaghetti 03 Sep 15 8.42pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 8.25pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 7.35pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 7.07pm
When you then come out with stuff about you having no responsibility to others, with your kids comment, what you've clumsily and accidentally done is shine a light on the nuance of how people feel about their country and family and how best to protect everything they care about. People become torn. There is no, hero if tick box A, little worth as a person if tick box B. These are people trying to do their best in terrible situations beyond those we will ever face, while you sit there judging them from afar. Call me what you like in the process, but yes I'll comment on that. Edited by oldcodger (03 Sep 2015 7.09pm) Previously I simply responded to you upon the level you wished to operate on. It was you who wished to speculate upon people being plums and not having brains.....As well as previously disfiguring their position. However, this post appears to be playing the ball and not the man so fair enough. I'm very clear about how I regard men in terms of standing and fighting against extremists in Syria and those that decide to run. Yes, I do see a difference in worth. I'd rather support those that fight and I have contributed to funds towards Kobane......The Kurds are a people I respect.....Personally once the Syrian crisis is finally over I'd support a Kurdish ruled region in northern Syria....Whether Turkey like it or not. If my country was subject to invasion I'd stand and fight. Countries are only ever free because hundreds of thousands of people died fighting for that freedom. It isn't won by young men running away. I say again.....A point you haven't tackled....What about those in Syria fighting against IS....Where is their support? You are prepared to house and allow people to stay in rich western countries but what do the people standing and fighting get? All these men fighting to get into rich countries..What happens once Syria is peaceful again...They get to return to the country braver men and women fought for. Your damn right I see a difference. Your damn right I judge people over that. I made a point about self interest.....About how its natural to be interested in your own children over the interests of someone else's.....though obviously you don't wish them harm. If Syrians were sending their children or women aboard for Asylum while they fought for the future of their country I'd feel far more sympathy towards the situation......Hell, I'd take those men injured fighting IS who had been vouched for. But in most situations this is young men and young men with families. These people took their money and ran....It is what it is. My policy has been previously stated......A set number on asylum judged upon by my own government....People vouched for by those moderate groups fighting against IS and excepting anyone who willingly fought for Assad.
There's little sense in leaving your wife and child without a husband or father if your situation seems futile. It's easy to suggest otherwise on a forum, but it's when you're on the ground that you can gauge the situation and make that call. We had and have the opportunity to be more robust in our opposition to ISIS. There's an element of chickens coming home to roost to this on account of us not doing so. As for the point of what about those left behind, that feeds directly into your idea of 'you take care of your children, I'll take care of mine'. You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed and that is the 'true' reality for most really. You gauge the situation and you act there and then. We can all be super heroes at a computer, harshly judging people making a journey they know they might not even survive. For supposed cowards though, it's a braver decision than any of us will ever have to make for our families.
Be aware, 'Stirling' is very quick to get you carded if you don't agree with him/her. Precious springs to mind.
Time to move forward together. |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Sep 15 8.51pm |
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Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 8.25pm
As for the point of what about those left behind, that feeds directly into your idea of 'you take care of your children, I'll take care of mine'. You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed and that is the 'true' reality for most really. You gauge the situation and you act there and then. We can all be super heroes at a computer, harshly judging people making a journey they know they might not even survive. For supposed cowards though, it's a braver decision than any of us will ever have to make for our families.
Still, no commentary on those staying and fighting....No answers about how it affects the future of that country and the relevant worth of fighting for a cause...I guess none of them have children eh. They must be heartless souls staying there and fighting.....Well listening to your logic. In the second world war in Britain people in cities sent their children out into the country. They stayed and many died in those cities. They didn't bugger off to Ireland. What if they had all left and buggered off to the countryside? War production would have shut down. You carry on implying that I shouldn't judge people.....Sorry mate, I've explained how I view it and it isn't important that you regard that as unfair. Also, you wrote this....'You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed'. This is a ridiculous extrapolation. It completely sails over the reality that everyone sees relationships in degrees. I don't have a 'mixed relationship' with allegiance to my country because I love my own children more than my neighbours......Wow. Did you really write that. By your logic everyone in the forces has a 'mixed relationship' with allegiance to their countries.....What complete and utter rot. I guess those standing and fighting in Syria are doing it for a laugh.....As they have a 'mixed relationship' with alligence to their country because they love their own children more than their neighbours.
Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Sep 2015 8.52pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| Stirlingsays 03 Sep 15 8.56pm |
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Quote -TUX- at 03 Sep 2015 8.42pm
Be aware, 'Stirling' is very quick to get you carded if you don't agree with him/her. Precious springs to mind. Oh dear. I only ever go to mods if someone starts f...ing and swearing at me. You know Tux.....the actual rules. I've never reported anyone over anything else, no matter how different their view is or robust the exchange......And quite frankly you shouldn't be suggesting otherwise without knowing what you are talking about. Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Sep 2015 9.02pm)
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| oldcodger 03 Sep 15 9.09pm |
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Quote Stirlingsays at 03 Sep 2015 8.51pm
Quote oldcodger at 03 Sep 2015 8.25pm
As for the point of what about those left behind, that feeds directly into your idea of 'you take care of your children, I'll take care of mine'. You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed and that is the 'true' reality for most really. You gauge the situation and you act there and then. We can all be super heroes at a computer, harshly judging people making a journey they know they might not even survive. For supposed cowards though, it's a braver decision than any of us will ever have to make for our families.
Still, no commentary on those staying and fighting....No answers about how it affects the future of that country and the relevant worth of fighting for a cause...I guess none of them have children eh. They must be heartless souls staying there and fighting.....Well listening to your logic. In the second world war in Britain people in cities sent their children out into the country. They stayed and many died in those cities. They didn't bugger off to Ireland. What if they had all left and buggered off to the countryside? War production would have shut down. You carry on implying that I shouldn't judge people.....Sorry mate, I've explained how I view it and it isn't important that you regard that as unfair. Also, you wrote this....'You see your own attitude towards allegiance to country and family was mixed'. This is a ridiculous extrapolation. It completely sails over the reality that everyone sees relationships in degrees. I don't have a 'mixed relationship' with allegiance to my country because I love my own children more than my neighbours......Wow. Did you really write that. By your logic everyone in the forces has a 'mixed relationship' with allegiance to their countries.....What complete and utter rot. I guess those standing and fighting in Syria are doing it for a laugh.....As they have a 'mixed relationship' with alligence to their country because they love their own children more than their neighbours.
Edited by Stirlingsays (03 Sep 2015 8.52pm) If you don't feel they should leave, then good for you, but it's not your decision to make. Not all wars are equal, people make the decision they feel is right for their family or their country or both. Judge them all you want and I'll disagree all I want. While staying and fighting is brave, the alternative is also brave and perilous in many respects. It's not a pure black and white issue. You'll never have to make these decisions anyway. It wouldn't hurt to factor that in between your sneers at people in dire need. I'll leave you be anyway, it sounds like I could get carded if you work yourself up too much, which seems to be happening. Have fun.
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