Hiroshima

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Hiroshima

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Kermit8 Hevon 07 Aug 15 9.07pm
Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 07 Aug 15 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs.

Like Stirlingsays

I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here)

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful.
Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts.

Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one.
I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Catfish Burgess Hill 07 Aug 15 9.33pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 4.08pm Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Aug 2015 3.24pm Innocents (as well as innocence) will always die in war. Well at least up until 1991 when they then became collateral damage. How innocent is innocent? I have always believed that Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, Franco etc would never have been able to do what they did without the backing of the majority of the people. Indeed we praise the Great British Blitz spirit (An example of propaganda over reality) Does that mean they deserved to be vaporised? No probably not. My dad fought in the war, I am very proud of his war record, he died when I was very young so I never got chance to discuss it with him. He was predominantly in the Med but did serve in the far east at the end of the war. As a Liberal and given his experiences, I do wonder what he thought about things like Hiroshima. We tend to romanticize our selves and demonise the other. The spirit of the blitz, also tends to hide the fact that one of the biggest problems the police had in London was from people robbing bombed buildings - It remains the Flying Squads busiest ever period in history, and an era in which organized crime flourished in the cities. Crime, especially black marketeering, looting (390 cases in the first few weeks) and theft were at an all time high. There was a massive rise in prostitution and fraud as well. It wasn't all chip in, do your bit and stiff up lip, spirit of the blitz. It was a very real hell into which people had to live, and get by however they could, and for some people it was an opportunity to profit on the misery of others. Incidentally of the first 20 looting prosecutions, 10 were of volunteers in the auxiliary fire brigade. Absolutely true. My mother remembers bomb sites being looted while the heavy rescue men were still digging the bodies out. Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial
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Catfish

Burgess Hill 07 Aug 15 9.33pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 4.08pm

Quote Y Ddraig Goch at 07 Aug 2015 3.24pm

Innocents (as well as innocence) will always die in war. Well at least up until 1991 when they then became collateral damage.

How innocent is innocent? I have always believed that Hitler, Hirohito, Mussolini, Franco etc would never have been able to do what they did without the backing of the majority of the people. Indeed we praise the Great British Blitz spirit (An example of propaganda over reality)
Does that mean they deserved to be vaporised? No probably not.

My dad fought in the war, I am very proud of his war record, he died when I was very young so I never got chance to discuss it with him. He was predominantly in the Med but did serve in the far east at the end of the war. As a Liberal and given his experiences, I do wonder what he thought about things like Hiroshima.

We tend to romanticize our selves and demonise the other. The spirit of the blitz, also tends to hide the fact that one of the biggest problems the police had in London was from people robbing bombed buildings - It remains the Flying Squads busiest ever period in history, and an era in which organized crime flourished in the cities. Crime, especially black marketeering, looting (390 cases in the first few weeks) and theft were at an all time high. There was a massive rise in prostitution and fraud as well.

It wasn't all chip in, do your bit and stiff up lip, spirit of the blitz. It was a very real hell into which people had to live, and get by however they could, and for some people it was an opportunity to profit on the misery of others.

Incidentally of the first 20 looting prosecutions, 10 were of volunteers in the auxiliary fire brigade.

Absolutely true. My mother remembers bomb sites being looted while the heavy rescue men were still digging the bodies out.

Yes, I am an agent of Satan but my duties are largely ceremonial

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TheJudge 07 Aug 15 9.37pm
Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Educated ? Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ?
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TheJudge

07 Aug 15 9.37pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

Like Stirlingsays

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Educated ?

Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ?

Alert a moderator to this post

Kermit8 Hevon 07 Aug 15 10.11pm
Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Educated ? Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ? "We"?? Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 07 Aug 15 10.11pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

Like Stirlingsays

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Educated ?

Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ?

"We"??

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

leggedstruggle Croydon 07 Aug 15 10.35pm
Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 10.11pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Educated ? Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ? "We"?? Zamyatin mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 07 Aug 15 10.35pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 10.11pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

Like Stirlingsays

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Educated ?

Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ?

"We"??

Zamyatin

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

Alert a moderator to this post

matt_himself Matataland 08 Aug 15 5.32am
Quote Stirlingsays at 07 Aug 2015 4.39pm It isn't being overlooked, you just don't understand how it worked. There could not have been a surrender conditional or unconditional without the Emperor accepting it. He wanted to come to terms more than his war council did. If he accepted terms he only had to order his council....Who were advisory....to accept them too. Wasn't you aware it was the Emperor who put out the conditional surrender 'feelers' for the USSR to mediate? The whole reason there was no resistance to the US troops was because the Emperor had ordered a surrender. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Aug 2015 4.45pm) Again, I disagree with you. The Big Six didn't want to reach out to the Soviets. The only reason they did, and it wasn't a consensus decision between them, was because the Soviets notified them that they would be breaching the Soviet-Japanese non aggression pact. The Japanese knew that if the Soviets attacked their possessions in China and Korea, that that would be the last places where the Japanese had access to natural resources. They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific. "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 08 Aug 15 5.32am

Quote Stirlingsays at 07 Aug 2015 4.39pm

It isn't being overlooked, you just don't understand how it worked.

There could not have been a surrender conditional or unconditional without the Emperor accepting it. He wanted to come to terms more than his war council did. If he accepted terms he only had to order his council....Who were advisory....to accept them too.

Wasn't you aware it was the Emperor who put out the conditional surrender 'feelers' for the USSR to mediate?

The whole reason there was no resistance to the US troops was because the Emperor had ordered a surrender.

Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Aug 2015 4.45pm)

Again, I disagree with you.

The Big Six didn't want to reach out to the Soviets. The only reason they did, and it wasn't a consensus decision between them, was because the Soviets notified them that they would be breaching the Soviet-Japanese non aggression pact. The Japanese knew that if the Soviets attacked their possessions in China and Korea, that that would be the last places where the Japanese had access to natural resources.

They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific.

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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johnny the eagle wivenhoe 08 Aug 15 8.23am
Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Your right it was done to save American lives................and the lives of all the other allies, mission accomplished. South London born and bred red and blue till im dead.
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johnny the eagle

wivenhoe 08 Aug 15 8.23am

Send a Private Message to johnny the eagle

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

Like Stirlingsays

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Your right it was done to save American lives................and the lives of all the other allies, mission accomplished.

South London born and bred
red and blue till im dead.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 08 Aug 15 9.45am
Quote leggedstruggle at 07 Aug 2015 10.35pm Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 10.11pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm I just knew you would get race into it somewhere. This thread is about Hiroshima of course and it is clear that the people posting on here who are left of center politically want to spin their high handed revisionist theories about dropping the bomb completely ignoring the context and seemingly putting the lives of the enemy before the lives of allied soldiers. This is the kind of attitude that rubs me up the wrong way. No one but a psychopath wants to kill masses of people in such a brutal way unless is perceived to be for the greater good. When it comes to war, it is us against them. The bleeding heart liberal left seem to want to worry about everyone else except their own when it comes to World affairs. Like Stirlingsays I've only had a chance today to read all this today and up until two pages ago, it's been the best discussion on the HOL in recent memory. The reason is that everyone appeared to be treating opposing views with respect and not just jumping on the left/right bandwagon. I even managed to learn a thing or two. Kudos to most of the posters. Please try not to ruin it Judge. It's opinions, it's never going to be 'solved' but it makes for a great thread. It's not a left/right issue (which always kills all other discussions on here) Oh behave. I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice. You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position. I would say that although the debate is a fun distraction it is not particularly purposeful. Revisionist opinions obviously have the benefit of hindsight and in almost all cases are based supposition since no one was actually there and cannot possibly know the full facts. Even those who were there might not know all the facts. Using basic descriptions like left or right is only a simple way to generalise on subjects that are highly complex and nuanced. Please spare me high handed judgmental posts like your last one. I'm a moderate generally but on the net you have to speak in the appropriate language and that can often be somewhat adversarial. You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub. My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did. A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will. 'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir' Educated ? Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ? "We"?? Zamyatin Russian dystopia literature at its best. Good old Yevgeny
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 08 Aug 15 9.45am

Quote leggedstruggle at 07 Aug 2015 10.35pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 10.11pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 9.37pm

Quote Kermit8 at 07 Aug 2015 9.07pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 7.08pm

Quote Superfly at 07 Aug 2015 3.05pm

Quote TheJudge at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm

I just knew you would get race into it somewhere.

Like Stirlingsays

Oh behave.

I stated my opinion on this many posts back without political prejudice.

You are quite right that it is not a political discussion but inevitably people of a certain disposition will be fairly predictable in their position.

You want a proper debate ? Meet me in a pub.

My leftie opinion is not revisionist but an educated guess as to what other things motivated the US to drop those bombs where they did.

A good day to bury 140,000 and test out the new toy. Apparatus, method and conclusion if you will.

'we'll tell them it was only done to save American lives and nothing else, sir'

Educated ?

Tell me. Do you think we landed on the Moon ?

"We"??

Zamyatin

Russian dystopia literature at its best. Good old Yevgeny

Alert a moderator to this post

Stirlingsays 08 Aug 15 1.17pm
Quote matt_himself at 08 Aug 2015 5.32am Again, I disagree with you. The Big Six didn't want to reach out to the Soviets. The only reason they did, and it wasn't a consensus decision between them, was because the Soviets notified them that they would be breaching the Soviet-Japanese non aggression pact. The Japanese knew that if the Soviets attacked their possessions in China and Korea, that that would be the last places where the Japanese had access to natural resources. They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific. Talk about revisionism right there. The Emperor ordered peace feelers to be made....When its known that the war council were against it and you manage to construct a different motive out of it. Even if they did......wish to continue an unwinnable war....I don't see how it makes a difference in gaining a brief delay. No air superiority over their islands. Completely surrounded. No means of holding onto any foreign possessions. Negotiations for peace hardly means the allies stop mobilization against them.....The picture doesn't get to change in any way. I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are grasping for straws to defend the indefensible. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2015 1.56pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

08 Aug 15 1.17pm

Quote matt_himself at 08 Aug 2015 5.32am

Again, I disagree with you.

They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific.

Talk about revisionism right there. The Emperor ordered peace feelers to be made....When its known that the war council were against it and you manage to construct a different motive out of it.

Even if they did......wish to continue an unwinnable war....I don't see how it makes a difference in gaining a brief delay.

No air superiority over their islands.
Completely surrounded.
No means of holding onto any foreign possessions.

Negotiations for peace hardly means the allies stop mobilization against them.....The picture doesn't get to change in any way.

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2015 1.56pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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matt_himself Matataland 08 Aug 15 5.12pm
Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Aug 2015 1.17pm Quote matt_himself at 08 Aug 2015 5.32am Again, I disagree with you. The Big Six didn't want to reach out to the Soviets. The only reason they did, and it wasn't a consensus decision between them, was because the Soviets notified them that they would be breaching the Soviet-Japanese non aggression pact. The Japanese knew that if the Soviets attacked their possessions in China and Korea, that that would be the last places where the Japanese had access to natural resources. They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific. Talk about revisionism right there. The Emperor ordered peace feelers to be made....When its known that the war council were against it and you manage to construct a different motive out of it. Even if they did......wish to continue an unwinnable war....I don't see how it makes a difference in gaining a brief delay. No air superiority over their islands. Completely surrounded. No means of holding onto any foreign possessions. Negotiations for peace hardly means the allies stop mobilization against them.....The picture doesn't get to change in any way. I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are grasping for straws to defend the indefensible. Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2015 1.56pm) It is a matter of fact that the discussions between the Japanese and Soviets started when the Soviets told the Japanese that they would be breaching the non-aggression pact. The discussions weren't taking seriously on either side, certainly less so by the Soviets who just wanted to protect their interests in the Pacific. Edited by matt_himself (08 Aug 2015 7.52pm) "That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02
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matt_himself

Matataland 08 Aug 15 5.12pm

Quote Stirlingsays at 08 Aug 2015 1.17pm

Quote matt_himself at 08 Aug 2015 5.32am

Again, I disagree with you.

They did so to try and stall the Soviets. The Soviets in turn weren't serious about talking to the Japanese, they were only interested in protecting their interests in the Pacific.

Talk about revisionism right there. The Emperor ordered peace feelers to be made....When its known that the war council were against it and you manage to construct a different motive out of it.

Even if they did......wish to continue an unwinnable war....I don't see how it makes a difference in gaining a brief delay.

No air superiority over their islands.
Completely surrounded.
No means of holding onto any foreign possessions.

Negotiations for peace hardly means the allies stop mobilization against them.....The picture doesn't get to change in any way.

I suppose you are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you are grasping for straws to defend the indefensible.

Edited by Stirlingsays (08 Aug 2015 1.56pm)

It is a matter of fact that the discussions between the Japanese and Soviets started when the Soviets told the Japanese that they would be breaching the non-aggression pact.

The discussions weren't taking seriously on either side, certainly less so by the Soviets who just wanted to protect their interests in the Pacific.

Edited by matt_himself (08 Aug 2015 7.52pm)

"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

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leggedstruggle Croydon 09 Aug 15 1.14pm
"Ha so, Yankee don't like my race" I said, "Now, there's a mistake, man, and that's true; I've been for you you japanese all along you japanese just can't do no wrong and I thought you got mighty dirty deal in World War II." [Townes Van Zandt] mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 09 Aug 15 1.14pm

"Ha so, Yankee don't like my race"
I said, "Now, there's a mistake, man, and that's true;
I've been for you you japanese all along
you japanese just can't do no wrong
and I thought you got mighty dirty deal in World War II."

[Townes Van Zandt]

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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jamiemartin721 Reading 10 Aug 15 11.37am
Quote johnny the eagle at 08 Aug 2015 8.23am Your right it was done to save American lives................and the lives of all the other allies, mission accomplished. Well yes, and no, dependent on whether the US actually invaded the Japanese main land. The Japanese navy and air force was largely non-existent as a fighting force by that point, and its capacity for manufacturing capable of supporting the war effort was barely functional (one of the reasons why Hiroshima was selected). Within a short period of a month or so, the US could have essentially destroy the remainents of the fleet and air force and finished off Japanese industry, at which point the country would have lost all capacity to function, and would have almost certainly have surrendered in months, maybe at most it could have lasted half a year, blockaded by the US fleet, enforced by total air superiority. The decision wasn't taken to save US lives. It was taken probably for several key reasons. 1 - The US had spent a fortune on the Manhatten Project and the production of the atomic bomb. 2 - This superweapon required actual field testing, and the opportunity made their use preferable 3 - They offered a chance of ending the war quickly and economically. 4 - The cost of military invasion of Japan would have likely been a long insurgency battle for each province and cost half a million US lives. A price the US wasn't willing to pay, but the soviets wouldn't be to worried about. 5 - Unconditional surrender would prevent the Soviet expansion into the Pacific. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 10 Aug 15 11.37am

Quote johnny the eagle at 08 Aug 2015 8.23am
Your right it was done to save American lives................and the lives of all the other allies, mission accomplished.

Well yes, and no, dependent on whether the US actually invaded the Japanese main land. The Japanese navy and air force was largely non-existent as a fighting force by that point, and its capacity for manufacturing capable of supporting the war effort was barely functional (one of the reasons why Hiroshima was selected). Within a short period of a month or so, the US could have essentially destroy the remainents of the fleet and air force and finished off Japanese industry, at which point the country would have lost all capacity to function, and would have almost certainly have surrendered in months, maybe at most it could have lasted half a year, blockaded by the US fleet, enforced by total air superiority.

The decision wasn't taken to save US lives. It was taken probably for several key reasons.
1 - The US had spent a fortune on the Manhatten Project and the production of the atomic bomb.
2 - This superweapon required actual field testing, and the opportunity made their use preferable
3 - They offered a chance of ending the war quickly and economically.
4 - The cost of military invasion of Japan would have likely been a long insurgency battle for each province and cost half a million US lives. A price the US wasn't willing to pay, but the soviets wouldn't be to worried about.
5 - Unconditional surrender would prevent the Soviet expansion into the Pacific.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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