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BBC bias against Trump
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legaleagle  02 Aug 16 12.34pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Well liberalism is about morality and we associate our own morality with the concept of "good". It is a construct that has nothing to do with reality of course aside from a possible evolutionary advantage but that is speculation. It might be argued liberalism is at root about the desirability of lack of interference from the centre/the state into people's everyday lives,be it,social activities or economic. Perhaps the biggest surge and influence of liberalism in recent decades has come from liberal ideologues associated with the right,who's views were taken up in a populist way by politicians such as Maggie and Reagan and their successors. Much of the left historically has not been liberal (such as mainline Communists and Trotskyists) who generally believe in a high degree of central control/direction over social and economic matters..
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  Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 16 12.56pm |
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Originally posted by legaleagle
It might be argued liberalism is at root about the desirability of lack of interference from the centre/the state into people's everyday lives,be it,social activities or economic. Perhaps the biggest surge and influence of liberalism in recent decades has come from liberal ideologues associated with the right,who's views were taken up in a populist way by politicians such as Maggie and Reagan and their successors. Much of the left historically has not been liberal (such as mainline Communists and Trotskyists) who generally believe in a high degree of central control/direction over social and economic matters.. Once again the limits of labels. The same ones are used to describe a range of attitudes. Perhaps we need a new frame of reference.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 16 1.00pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Well liberalism is about morality and we associate our own morality with the concept of "good". It is a construct that has nothing to do with reality of course aside from a possible evolutionary advantage but that is speculation. I disagree, Liberalism is if anything based in ethics, not morality, as its formation is in pragmatic solutions rather than ideological basis. Liberalism has tended to blend arguments from right wing and left wing sources from a middle point in the spectrum, which precludes the idea of a moral good, but more of a good that can be presented, more in keeping, with the production of compromise. For example, liberals tend towards abortion, with limitations, based on real world concerns, rather than moral objections. Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
The control of thought is again debatable. I don't think it is, thought control really doesn't work, and there has been a lot of attempted research in this area. Even brain washing is ineffective. Its a hyperbolic term typically used to an agenda point, rather than any kind of real thing. Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It might not be possible to control people in a complete sense but I would suggest that influencing people on a sub conscious level is quite easy, We are being manipulated all the time. This is a real thing, but its not necessarily anything special, as it occurs in all forms of social interaction. The process of engaging in any social activity, with other people, influences people on a subconscious and conscious level. Whilst social engineering occurs, it occurs pretty much through the same method of any kind of social experience or interaction. Liberalism in this, is no different than any other idea expressed. People are positional not objective in construction of their social reality and use of language. As such, manipulation is simply a mechanic of discourse, whether deliberate or otherwise (in fact its harder to influence people deliberately, than accidentally due to how we position and relate to our social environment and cues). Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Orwellian manipulation is a part of modern life and you and I are a victim of it as much as anyone else. I'm not so sure its Orwellian, given the implications of Orwell is that the state is not influencing people, its demanding of them to accept only its view point and that thought crime is punishable by extinction. Orwell is talking about the power of singular absolute truths, which is certainly not true of liberalism, which relies very much on the construction of rationalisation. Liberalism, cannot exist without conflicting view points, it has no real ideals, other than the ideas that can be rationally demonstrated, where as the right and left wing exist around the ideologies of capital, liberalism has much more focus in the reality of those two ideals. Where as socialism is best seen as a critical analysis of Capitalism, in many ways liberalism is a critical assessment of that assessment.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 16 1.34pm |
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I'm not sure why you are nitpicking the definition of morality. Ethics are a framework or moral interpretations so amount to the same thing. The term brainwashing is used rather liberally(no pun intended) to describe a whole host of different types of psychological manipulation but the extent to which this can be successful is unknown. The most extreme applications have been largely kept secret from the public. Project MK Ultra for example. I would not want to speculate on how effective such experiments have been but on a more prosaic level, manipulation of opinion using control of information and psychology has been effective.Of course we might not be entirely aware of how effective in particular circumstances and that is irony of debating it.
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| dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 02 Aug 16 2.01pm |
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Welll yes that's all very interesting, can we just agree that trump is a first class, grade A, massive cnut and for the first time in its history the Beeb's liberal bias is truly justified ?
"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 16 2.08pm |
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Originally posted by dannyh
Welll yes that's all very interesting, can we just agree that trump is a first class, grade A, massive cnut and for the first time in its history the Beeb's liberal bias is truly justified ? I think we should see Trump for what he is. An ambitious self serving man who is peddling a particular agenda to achieve his goal.
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| Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 02 Aug 16 2.52pm |
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His one and only purpose is to make the vile Hilary seem palatable. And it (just about) works but they really had to scrape the barrel. Put your house on Hilary. If she loses - they just fiddle it anyway.
Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre with Superfly in the chorus |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 16 5.31pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I'm not sure why you are nitpicking the definition of morality. Ethics are a framework or moral interpretations so amount to the same thing. I think this is a common belief, however ethics are socially constructed rather than personally held, where as morals are individual concepts, which can be in conflict with ethical views of the social world. Ethics cannot exist without social validation and engagement (I also don't believe that morality exists, but that's a separate argument). In effect, something is ethical, if you can construct a reasonable argument, that presents a sound basis that cannot be refuted logically or rationally. This fits liberalism far more than the idea of morality, which in my experience fits much better to concepts of the right or left wing. Socialism and capitalism, are idealistic, and thus more geared towards moral values and views of social order, where as liberalism has a stronger basis in the argument and social influence, which better fits ethical considerations (please note of course some Liberals have constructed and ideaology of Liberalism, but that is simply the 'third way' mentality). I know it seems pedantic, but I made the mistake of doing an A-level in philosophy.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Aug 16 5.34pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I think we should see Trump for what he is. An ambitious self serving man who is peddling a particular agenda to achieve his goal. I think his politics aren't his, they just a means to an end, mainly because they conflict entirely with politics he'd held previously. I think his politic existence begins and ends with Donald Trump. Its staggering just how much false facts and utter horsesh*t can spill out of one man, without him being called on it.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 16 6.17pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think this is a common belief, however ethics are socially constructed rather than personally held, where as morals are individual concepts, which can be in conflict with ethical views of the social world. Ethics cannot exist without social validation and engagement (I also don't believe that morality exists, but that's a separate argument). In effect, something is ethical, if you can construct a reasonable argument, that presents a sound basis that cannot be refuted logically or rationally. This fits liberalism far more than the idea of morality, which in my experience fits much better to concepts of the right or left wing. Socialism and capitalism, are idealistic, and thus more geared towards moral values and views of social order, where as liberalism has a stronger basis in the argument and social influence, which better fits ethical considerations (please note of course some Liberals have constructed and ideaology of Liberalism, but that is simply the 'third way' mentality). I know it seems pedantic, but I made the mistake of doing an A-level in philosophy. Surely no one could accuse you of that. Why that would be tantamount to calling me sarcastic. So ethics are generally brought about by a consensus of moral and practical guidelines. With liberalism etc, I just think that the language we use is just not nuanced enough to separate out the subtle differences between individual opinion. Clearly, people don't all think the same way but often align themselves to others who have similar views. They are often happy to be labeled in a particular way because of a tribal inclination.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 02 Aug 16 6.27pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I think his politics aren't his, they just a means to an end, mainly because they conflict entirely with politics he'd held previously. I think his politic existence begins and ends with Donald Trump. Its staggering just how much false facts and utter horsesh*t can spill out of one man, without him being called on it. I'm not sure he is alone in that but we shouldn't underestimate the stupidity of the electorate in believing the integrity of politicians. In one sense, we have fought for the right to be stupid and we are taking full advantage of it. Idiocracy is alive and well but I do not believe that idiocy rests solely with supporters of Donald Trump.
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| Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 02 Aug 16 8.18pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
No, I've heard it's bad for your health. I can only comment on what I see and what I see is liberalism/leftism all over the media. I am all for liberalism when it is a force for good but all to often, at best it is a demonstration of naivety and at worst, a means to control thought and imformation. Glad to see you're keeping an eye on your health :-) I'll agree with you on the liberalism agenda being everywhere. However, Liberalism (let's call it Neo-Liberalism these days) is the agenda of corporate consumerism and "rights for all" as long as those rights contribute to big business profits. The day we start seeing the media call for Nationalisations and increased taxation of wealth is when we'll see a left wing bias.
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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