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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Jun 16 11.07am | |
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Originally posted by palace-metros
Easy to say that now. Back then the spread of Communism was real and viewed as a threat to Western democracy.
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Kermit8 Hevon 08 Jun 16 11.14am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The war in Vietham came at a huge cost to America but it stopped the spread of communism. The ideological left just don't like the reality that freedom is paid for in blood. Apparently if we could just talk about it just a little bit more it would all be alright. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Jun 2016 7.39pm) Didn't though, did it? Cambodia 1975-79. I would be surprised if many of the old vet US soldiers would still go to Vietnam knowing what they know now if they were transported back to 1964.
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Y Ddraig Goch In The Crowd 08 Jun 16 11.58am | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The war in Vietham came at a huge cost to America but it stopped the spread of communism. If the west...namely America hadn't fought communism it would have just continued spreading and taking them down one by one. The ideological left just don't like the reality that freedom is paid for in blood. Apparently if we could just talk about it just a little bit more it would all be alright. Edited by Stirlingsays (07 Jun 2016 7.39pm) The Americans were incredibly naive regarding Vietnam, they learned absolutely nothing from the French. The lessons still have not been learned, if you are going to fight a war then fight it. Not the half arsed attempts at reducing "Collateral Damage" which inevitably just draws things out
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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Jun 16 12.28pm | |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Didn't though, did it? Cambodia 1975-79. I would be surprised if many of the old vet US soldiers would still go to Vietnam knowing what they know now if they were transported back to 1964. To be fair, you could probably say that about most wars.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jun 16 1.29pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Easy to say that now. Back then the spread of Communism was real and viewed as a threat to Western democracy. Or more realistically considered a valid reason to implement an equally unacceptable, and highly profitable approach to foreign policy. Communism was never a threat to Western Democracy except in terms of WWIII. Whilst socialist groups had influence, the communist party in the UK never really had much in membership, even at the height of its influence. But it did allow for the UK, for example, to act against the growing Labour movement and trade unionism, by exaggerating the threat of Communist Infiltrators (the soviets in terms of espionage, largely stayed clear of the CPGB and Trade Unions). What effectively was being waged was a proxy war for markets by the soviet union and the west (essentially with both sides exploiting those factions for profit and trade - especially of arms) - and ultimately justified propping up (read massively exploiting) numerous cruel and brutal dictatorships (and installing cruel and brutal dictatorships). None of the major Western nation were overthrown by communism, or really all that affected by it, but their capacity to control third world countries and exploit them was greatly enhanced in that post-Empire world.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jun 16 1.41pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Oh I see, black racism is acceptable if you yourself are discriminated against. So to be a black separatist is an understandable response.....Even in an era where very few black men agreed. Well yes, if you are actually being persecuted, oppressed, excluded from society then its perfectly acceptable, its entirely rational. Its important to remember the time and how entrenched in the apparatus of state that prejudice was (people were being killed for demanding the right to use the same facilities as white people). Black separatist movements, such as the Panthers, were quite keen to point out that their views were about equality, not maintaining a position of superiority, and whilst some members may well have had issues with white people, the Black Panther party had close affiliation with the SDS and predominately white Counter-Culture of the era. In fact, members of the Black Liberation Army also included whites, where as the Black Panthers supported the formation of the White Panther party. Most of the black separatists groups saw separatism as the only viable option until such a time that Americans could over come their prejudiced. That's a long way from the racism of the time exhibited by the Klan, Aryan Nationalists etc Its not racism, if you hate people who are actually oppressing you because of the colour of your skin. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
The fact is that Ali is praised and his racism ignored or minimized by most yet Hogan did far far less than Ali ever did on race yet is regarded as a terrible human being is sheer hypocrisy in my book. Its also worth noting that Ali wasn't actually very racist either, he was quite happy to talk and associate with white people. His protest was more about the state and the people who supported the position of white privilege.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jun 16 2.02pm | |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
He was a good man who had some seriously wrong headed views for the majority of his productive life.....To an extent I agree with the 'angry young black man suffering injustice' line but it has to be remembered that many many black men didn't follow his reactionary path but instead followed the steps of people like MLK....and thank god they did....Because it was though the efforts of Doctor King and co that laws were changed....Not your angry men in the Nation of Islam....All they did was cause deeper diversion. Without the alternative groups like the Black Panthers and Nation of Islam, NACAP would never have been seen as an acceptable face of civil rights movement. The US state was effectively backed into a corner, and it was very clear when MLK was murdered, just exactly what the alternative was going to go. Its very easy to demand that people be civilised in the face of brutality and cruelty. The shame of the US government, is that it allowed that cruelty to carry on for so long. Its only really when the real alternative to the Peaceful protesters (who were being beaten, murdered, bitten, tortured and raped) was civil war, that the situation really started to change. I genuinely think, that when the authorities start murdering people, or getting away with murdering people, then people are entirely right to fight back. Its self defence (the Black Panther Party for Self Defence armed themselves, and acted totally within the law, in response to the Los Angles Police Departments racist police force, and its actions. The response to their peaceful, legal protest, was to change the laws not to investigate the LAPD, with Regan implementing restrictive Gun Legislation with the support of the NRA). Especially when groups like the Black Panthers, NAACAP etc were starting to mix with the SDS Party etc. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
His attitude to Vietham service compared to those black man who served was unforgivable in many ways....It does truly sicken me to see Obama completely disregard the blood given by them by praising a conscientious objector as the greatest human.....Personally I regard any black man who served his country in war as far more honourable than Ali. But that's not the point, it highlighted the hypocracy, that he couldn't necessarily get into a half decent school, or career in the US, but he was expected to go and kill its enemies for them. The point is that those black men were fighting for a country that didn't regard them as even equal citizens. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Also the slurs on mixed race children and white people certainly should have seen far more contrition later on in life than they received. Quite agree. Originally posted by Stirlingsays
He did not divide down between good white people or bad white people....To Ali they were all snakes. Quite untrue, he regarded them as snakes until he got to know them to be otherwise. Quite common in black American of the time, not to trust that white people are good folk. That kind of mistake could get a man killed. Its worth remembering that Ali/Clay was hardly a well educated man. He was a working class boxer, who if he hadn't been good at boxing, had no real prospects because of his race and social class. I think its difficult to judge someone a good person or bad person. They're just people, they're flawed and Ali is as flawed as the world he found himself in. The difference, is that he used his success and position, to make that stand and to make those objections known. And that is what people respect, people who see something that is wrong in their world, and make that stand, often at personal sacrifice and loss.
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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Jun 16 2.31pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Or more realistically considered a valid reason to implement an equally unacceptable, and highly profitable approach to foreign policy. Communism was never a threat to Western Democracy except in terms of WWIII. Whilst socialist groups had influence, the communist party in the UK never really had much in membership, even at the height of its influence. But it did allow for the UK, for example, to act against the growing Labour movement and trade unionism, by exaggerating the threat of Communist Infiltrators (the soviets in terms of espionage, largely stayed clear of the CPGB and Trade Unions). What effectively was being waged was a proxy war for markets by the soviet union and the west (essentially with both sides exploiting those factions for profit and trade - especially of arms) - and ultimately justified propping up (read massively exploiting) numerous cruel and brutal dictatorships (and installing cruel and brutal dictatorships). None of the major Western nation were overthrown by communism, or really all that affected by it, but their capacity to control third world countries and exploit them was greatly enhanced in that post-Empire world. I would agree that the growth of communist countries interests, particularly the Soviet Union, was not just an ideological affair. Wealth was and is always a key factor. Whether that was the primary factor is debatable. I was not in those meetings so I don't know.
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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Jun 16 2.43pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its also worth noting that Ali wasn't actually very racist either, he was quite happy to talk and associate with white people. His protest was more about the state and the people who supported the position of white privilege. I clearly agree with the thrust of your argument but using this sort of phrase isn't too helpful. You are either racist or not. You can stop being racist on a philosophical level or choose to associate with other "races" it it serves your purpose but I don't believe we can afford such generosity as to say you aren't very racist because you just happen to be a particular individual or from a particular background. Would you say that a member of the BNP was not very racist because he had a couple of Black friends or worked for a black boss? We have to be even handed if we wish to want to retain the credibility of equality.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 08 Jun 16 3.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I clearly agree with the thrust of your argument but using this sort of phrase isn't too helpful. You are either racist or not. You can stop being racist on a philosophical level or choose to associate with other "races" it it serves your purpose but I don't believe we can afford such generosity as to say you aren't very racist because you just happen to be a particular individual or from a particular background. Would you say that a member of the BNP was not very racist because he had a couple of Black friends or worked for a black boss? We have to be even handed if we wish to want to retain the credibility of equality. It depends, do they support the repatriation of people on the basis of not being white. The BNP is a party that is explicitly racist and pro-actively racist. Was he racist, or anti-white. The question really that many like to fog over, with their 'he was racist' is whether he was right to be racist. I think given the time, it would have been quite sensible and reasonable to oppose the power imbalance of white America - and that its impossible to separate that from race; political power and being white went hand in hand. In terms of racism of the time, were the Nation of Islam and Black Panthers racist. Certainly compared to the KKK they weren't. I would posit, that he wasn't racist for the context of his era, but was a victim of racism. Inherently, the experience of growing up black in America during that time, was always going to create antipathy to some degree towards whites in general, due to the experiences of oppression. So for his time, I wouldn't call him racist. But I disagree with the idea that racism is an either or, and certainly plenty of whites even in the deep south were not racists either.
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Hrolf The Ganger 08 Jun 16 5.16pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
It depends, do they support the repatriation of people on the basis of not being white. The BNP is a party that is explicitly racist and pro-actively racist. Was he racist, or anti-white. The question really that many like to fog over, with their 'he was racist' is whether he was right to be racist. I think given the time, it would have been quite sensible and reasonable to oppose the power imbalance of white America - and that its impossible to separate that from race; political power and being white went hand in hand. In terms of racism of the time, were the Nation of Islam and Black Panthers racist. Certainly compared to the KKK they weren't. I would posit, that he wasn't racist for the context of his era, but was a victim of racism. Inherently, the experience of growing up black in America during that time, was always going to create antipathy to some degree towards whites in general, due to the experiences of oppression. So for his time, I wouldn't call him racist. But I disagree with the idea that racism is an either or, and certainly plenty of whites even in the deep south were not racists either. It is reasonable to say that it is not surprising that he was racist toward white people because of the discrimination that existed at the time. It is a totally different argument to say that he "wasn't very racist" because he associated with whites or that at the same time supported and voiced racist ideology. By that reckoning one could argue that someone is not very racist to dislike black people because in their town more street crime is committed by black people than is proportionate to the population. You can have one way of thinking or the other but not both.
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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 09 Jun 16 12.28pm | |
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Interesting thread this. For my two penneth The Sportsman A force of nature and the greatest heavyweight ever in arguably a time that had the best crop of heavyweights ever from Liston through to Frazier, Foreman etc - even the 'journeymen' such as Ken Norton or Ernie Shavers were excellent. The Man was a real contradiction. Nicked the whole 'I am the Greatest' schtick straight from a 1950s American wrestler called Gorgeous George as a means of selling tickets so he wasn't exactly original in that but the guy was a without doubt a great orator and talker in is prime whether in the ring or on Parky. Extremely hypocritical - extolling the virtues of black female members of the Nation of Islam for their simple dress and no make up whilst f***ing every glamorous black chick that drew breath and numerous and very open affairs. Turned his back on a friend in Malcolm X when he left the Nation of Islam and didn't speak to him until X's death at the hands of NOI members 3 years later. Hugely misogynistic with his wives - there is actually footage of him telling a TV reporter in front of one that she only speaks when he lets her when she is asked a question. Slightly racist without a doubt whether by influence or experience. Quite rightly fought the draft, one of my favourite clips is him being asked if his actions were that of a peoples champion by some war mongering hawk in his court case and his simple 'yes I am' just hits the mark he was just as an iconic anti-establishment 60's figure as Che or Lennon.. Shame he fought on long past his sell by date as the world has missed a fully functioning Ali for too many years...for those who have never seen it watch When we were Kings - the doc film of his fight in Zaire with Foreman or the Thriller in Manilla against Smokin Joe - one of the most brutal and best fights you well ever see - Tyson Fury it aint Edited by The Sash (09 Jun 2016 12.30pm)
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