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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 4.09pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Its a tactic borrowed from Right Wing Conservative politics, in which apparently being more 'neutral' in politics concerning the rights of individual, issues of race, gender, religion etc is generally unassailable on the facts. Problem is that the facts, at least as far as Right Wing American Conservatives go, support the Liberal view. Its becoming popular in the UK among some Conservatives and more traditional right wingers. Which is odd, because the UK conservative party has generally sat to the left of US republicanism (and to the left of democratic party in general). The Conservative party of Thatcher would have been liberal compared to the Republican right wing. Its the politics of rhetoric, where criticism cannot be levelled at policy, they attack the politician. Its the right wing equivalent of calling Tories fascists. The politics of ignorance, popular among those who believe that certain groups of people for no really logical reason deserve privilege status over other citizens. All very interesting but it really depends who's rights and what "race" or religion we are talking about. Certainly the right wing politicians are as much to blame for this mess as any one but they are being helped all the way by the "progressive liberals". Let's not get distracted by terminology here, that is a age old tactic of the left. Always crying foul.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Feb 16 4.11pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Whilst I agree with your general sentiment, one has to ask how you know the extent of this kind of behaviour among migrants. I would say that this is just the shape of things to come when we allow people of aggressive backward ideologies to come to Europe. Arguably many of those actually displaced in Syria, for example, are those fleeing from aggressive backward ideologies such as a totalitarian state and Islamic fundamentalists such as IS. It would seem a bit odd, if you were say an believer in the Sunni Islamic Caliphate to flee Syria, rather than maybe travel internally to join up with IS. Of course there is a case to be made that some of those who claim asylum are in fact 'sleeper' terrorists from IS et al seeking to further their cause abroad, but for the most part, I'd imagine that refugees from Syria, making their way to camps and then smuggling themselves to countries like Greece, probably are displaced by the Assad Regime or IS.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Feb 16 4.13pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
All very interesting but it really depends who's rights and what "race" or religion we are talking about. Certainly the right wing politicians are as much to blame for this mess as any one but they are being helped all the way by the "progressive liberals". Let's not get distracted by terminology here, that is a age old tactic of the left. Always crying foul. Liberal or the left - Make up your mind. Personally, I would say that all citizens of a country deserve the same rights in law. Irrespective of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion etc. I've yet to see a decent argument that would say otherwise.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 4.17pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Arguably many of those actually displaced in Syria, for example, are those fleeing from aggressive backward ideologies such as a totalitarian state and Islamic fundamentalists such as IS. It would seem a bit odd, if you were say an believer in the Sunni Islamic Caliphate to flee Syria, rather than maybe travel internally to join up with IS. Of course there is a case to be made that some of those who claim asylum are in fact 'sleeper' terrorists from IS et al seeking to further their cause abroad, but for the most part, I'd imagine that refugees from Syria, making their way to camps and then smuggling themselves to countries like Greece, probably are displaced by the Assad Regime or IS. They might disagree on the details and who should be in charge but that makes little difference to their attitude toward Westerners.
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 4.21pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Liberal or the left - Make up your mind. Personally, I would say that all citizens of a country deserve the same rights in law. Irrespective of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion etc. I've yet to see a decent argument that would say otherwise. You can be liberal and left wing. There is no argument, unless one set of "rights" impinges on another. Then we have a problem.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Feb 16 4.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
You can be liberal and left wing. There is no argument, unless one set of "rights" impinges on another. Then we have a problem. Not if you extend the rights to the person, not the organisation, as a fair compromise and allow people to make their own choice, rather than have the state make the decision on the behalf of them. My problem generally with 'anti-liberal' groups is that they foster a 'questionable and unpractical demands' on people who can rationally dismiss those arguments. Let people decide, where no clear consensus can be made, for themselves. My life, your life, our own decisions and responsibilities, not the moral dictates of others. Obviously there are limits - but in those areas, you usually find a clear consensus.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 02 Feb 16 4.40pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
You can be liberal and left wing. There is no argument, unless one set of "rights" impinges on another. Then we have a problem. Well not really, because the left wing would discriminate against the owners of the means of production, for want of an example, irrespective of their contribution, where as the liberal might only wish to increase taxation on the higher earner to fund state programs. The left wing have embraced liberal identity politics, but they are not liberal. The socialist would heavily focus taxation the rich on ideological grounds, the liberal might raise additional percentage of taxation on the wealthy to pay for social services necessary. Liberals are pro-capitalist, the left ultimately gravitate towards anti-capitalism. That's always been Labours problem, when its pro-capitalist, its doomed to fail, because it isn't liberal either. New Labour only really succeeded as well as it did, because it was essentially 'to the right of Ted Heaths Conservative party'.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 4.51pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Well not really, because the left wing would discriminate against the owners of the means of production, for want of an example, irrespective of their contribution, where as the liberal might only wish to increase taxation on the higher earner to fund state programs. The left wing have embraced liberal identity politics, but they are not liberal. The socialist would heavily focus taxation the rich on ideological grounds, the liberal might raise additional percentage of taxation on the wealthy to pay for social services necessary. Liberals are pro-capitalist, the left ultimately gravitate towards anti-capitalism. That's always been Labours problem, when its pro-capitalist, its doomed to fail, because it isn't liberal either. New Labour only really succeeded as well as it did, because it was essentially 'to the right of Ted Heaths Conservative party'. OK fair enough. But we are discussing identity politics related issues and in that area, the left and liberal attitudes are more often than not in accord as I implied.
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 5.25pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Not if you extend the rights to the person, not the organisation, as a fair compromise and allow people to make their own choice, rather than have the state make the decision on the behalf of them. My problem generally with 'anti-liberal' groups is that they foster a 'questionable and unpractical demands' on people who can rationally dismiss those arguments. Let people decide, where no clear consensus can be made, for themselves. My life, your life, our own decisions and responsibilities, not the moral dictates of others. Obviously there are limits - but in those areas, you usually find a clear consensus. Again all very reasonable but..... The basis on which you make personal decisions are very much determined by your belief system. When beliefs are so different then it is hard, as history has shown, to find compromise. I believe it is the duty of the state to encourage rejection of belief that is divisive and not in the interest of society. This might seem sinister to some but the alternative is even less attractive. We cannot allow the influence of religion to impinge on our society as it did in the past. Individual rights are as much restricted by religious doctrine as it is by anything else. Therefore we must decide whether the right to religious freedom is really just license to indoctrinate future generations and perpetuate division for ever more.
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Mr_Gristle In the land of Whelk Eaters 02 Feb 16 7.42pm | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Again all very reasonable but..... The basis on which you make personal decisions are very much determined by your belief system. When beliefs are so different then it is hard, as history has shown, to find compromise. I believe it is the duty of the state to encourage rejection of belief that is divisive and not in the interest of society. This might seem sinister to some but the alternative is even less attractive. We cannot allow the influence of religion to impinge on our society as it did in the past. Individual rights are as much restricted by religious doctrine as it is by anything else. Therefore we must decide whether the right to religious freedom is really just license to indoctrinate future generations and perpetuate division for ever more. If you'd stopped at "to encourage rejection of belief" I'd be with you. Otherwise, who decides what's divisive? Surely all religions - as opposed to sets of guiding principles like Buddhism - are divisive by definition? I am right behind you on your last paragraph, even though you're obviously a crazed right wing fascist and I'm a commie subversive ;-)
Well I think Simon's head is large; always involved in espionage. (Name that tune) |
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Hrolf The Ganger 02 Feb 16 8.58pm | |
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Originally posted by Mr_Gristle
If you'd stopped at "to encourage rejection of belief" I'd be with you. Otherwise, who decides what's divisive? Surely all religions - as opposed to sets of guiding principles like Buddhism - are divisive by definition? I am right behind you on your last paragraph, even though you're obviously a crazed right wing fascist and I'm a commie subversive ;-) Ha ha. I think the level of encouragement that could reasonably be applied would fall well below the severity of the life long indoctrination that it will be up against.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 03 Feb 16 9.41am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Again all very reasonable but..... The basis on which you make personal decisions are very much determined by your belief system. When beliefs are so different then it is hard, as history has shown, to find compromise. I believe it is the duty of the state to encourage rejection of belief that is divisive and not in the interest of society. This might seem sinister to some but the alternative is even less attractive. We cannot allow the influence of religion to impinge on our society as it did in the past. Individual rights are as much restricted by religious doctrine as it is by anything else. Therefore we must decide whether the right to religious freedom is really just license to indoctrinate future generations and perpetuate division for ever more. I agree with this, but to an extent people have the option not to be religious. I know that's harder if you grew up with religion, but it happens. The problem for me, where religion is concerned, is that it affects the choices of those who aren't religious by utilising its social influence to direct policy via democratic process based on religious ideology. Take abortion in Ireland - where in irrespective of religion a religious agenda was forced onto people who were not Catholic. I don't have a problem with Religion or other peoples beliefs in general, provided they allow for others to exercise their beliefs, choices and lifestyles. Obviously there is a limit where consensus agreement occurs (child sex offenders for example, are almost universally unable to establish a rational and sustainable argument as to their lifestyle).
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