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fed up eagle Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 06 Aug 15 7.27pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 4.40pm
Burning poppies isn't a crime. Its dislikable, but as an anti-war protest, its pretty much covered by the ideals of democracy allowing right to protest and the right of free expression. Similarly, non-violent protest is effectively a right in the UK, irrespective of what you are protesting against. Of course if you then come along, full of 'righteous anger' at someone's free speech, even if you hate what they're saying or expressing, and confront them, you're committing public order offences. You have the right to protest about it, obviously, but you if you are counter-protesting, then you're the one escalating the situation. For the record, I don't actually believe in Freedom of Speech, but if you're going to have such a stupid law, it has to be free to everyone, all the time. The idea of using anti-terrorism legislation to deal with what amounts otherwise to freedom of speech and expression, is contradictory. A right, by definition, must exceed the capacity of the state to legislate against that right (otherwise its not a right). Even if I utterly disagree with everything someone says, as long as its not incitement, a criminal threat or conspiracy, then its legal. Remember that Islamic terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism has no political power in the UK to oppress or change our rights, laws and freedoms and never will. Only the state can do that. And that's what governments tend to do in these situations, make exceptions. Probably good ones, but then once the precident is set, you have people being ejected under those same anti-terrorist laws for disrupting the Labour conference or protesting arms trade shows.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Aug 15 9.52am | |
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Quote fed up eagle at 06 Aug 2015 7.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 4.40pm
Burning poppies isn't a crime. Its dislikable, but as an anti-war protest, its pretty much covered by the ideals of democracy allowing right to protest and the right of free expression. Similarly, non-violent protest is effectively a right in the UK, irrespective of what you are protesting against. Of course if you then come along, full of 'righteous anger' at someone's free speech, even if you hate what they're saying or expressing, and confront them, you're committing public order offences. You have the right to protest about it, obviously, but you if you are counter-protesting, then you're the one escalating the situation. For the record, I don't actually believe in Freedom of Speech, but if you're going to have such a stupid law, it has to be free to everyone, all the time. The idea of using anti-terrorism legislation to deal with what amounts otherwise to freedom of speech and expression, is contradictory. A right, by definition, must exceed the capacity of the state to legislate against that right (otherwise its not a right). Even if I utterly disagree with everything someone says, as long as its not incitement, a criminal threat or conspiracy, then its legal. Remember that Islamic terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism has no political power in the UK to oppress or change our rights, laws and freedoms and never will. Only the state can do that. And that's what governments tend to do in these situations, make exceptions. Probably good ones, but then once the precident is set, you have people being ejected under those same anti-terrorist laws for disrupting the Labour conference or protesting arms trade shows.
Its only incitement if you do so with the intention of causing trouble and know the outcome - As the outcome was people only being outraged a day or two later once it made the news, no criminal offence was committed. The point is, either you have a right or you don't. Religious groups are protected under the Equal Opportunities act, along with sexuality, gender and race, so burning a bible or Koran, is technically a crime. Then again printing cartoons of the prophet Mohammad hasn't been illegal, even when the outcome was known (it is here, under equal opportunities act of 2004, but not in most of Europe). Biggest threat to the UK since Hitler or the cold war, Islamic terrorism is less of a threat to the British way of life than the UK government's popularist dismissal of peoples rights and civil liberties in the pursuit of 'combatting terrorism'. Hyperbole doesn't sit well as an argument. Islamic terrorism has killed as many people in the UK, as three days of road traffic accidents. Its a threat, but its not even remotely a threat to the existence of the UK. As for the migrants in Calais, well the best way of determining who they are, would be to process them. I doubt many of them are Islamic fundamentalist with a terrorist agenda, as they don't tend to move about that way (Terrorist groups tend to look to better funded options, and likely would utilize human trafficking routes, or quasi legal entry, via airports etc). You might have people wanting to be a problem, but they're low level threats, ie potential threats, lacking the financial backing or infrastructure to become an immediate threat. Most terrorists will travel on documentation, probably either a tourist visa or student visa, possibly secured on false or falsified documents. Terrorist groups, tend to look to more effective means of moving assets around. Of course as you now have large groups of people trying to cross, it has become more of an efficient method (ie the cover of a crowd).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Aug 15 9.56am | |
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Quote leggedstruggle at 06 Aug 2015 5.11pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 4.40pm
Burning poppies isn't a crime. Its dislikable, but as an anti-war protest, its pretty much covered by the ideals of democracy allowing right to protest and the right of free expression. Similarly, non-violent protest is effectively a right in the UK, irrespective of what you are protesting against. Of course if you then come along, full of 'righteous anger' at someone's free speech, even if you hate what they're saying or expressing, and confront them, you're committing public order offences. You have the right to protest about it, obviously, but you if you are counter-protesting, then you're the one escalating the situation. For the record, I don't actually believe in Freedom of Speech, but if you're going to have such a stupid law, it has to be free to everyone, all the time. The idea of using anti-terrorism legislation to deal with what amounts otherwise to freedom of speech and expression, is contradictory. A right, by definition, must exceed the capacity of the state to legislate against that right (otherwise its not a right). Even if I utterly disagree with everything someone says, as long as its not incitement, a criminal threat or conspiracy, then its legal. Remember that Islamic terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism has no political power in the UK to oppress or change our rights, laws and freedoms and never will. Only the state can do that. And that's what governments tend to do in these situations, make exceptions. Probably good ones, but then once the precident is set, you have people being ejected under those same anti-terrorist laws for disrupting the Labour conference or protesting arms trade shows. Yet burning a Koran is - young man arrested in Yorkshire for it in December. The Koran is a religious book, and religion is protected group under the Equal Opportunities act of 2004. Its worth of course noting that the 'poppy burners' were also arrested, and individuals have been arrested and charged with burning Poppies as a protest. Of course, when you limit the means of 'peaceful protest', you tend to end up driving people into the arms of those who promote violent protest. So less of the 'its a hypocrisy' as does actually cut both ways. Both of course are a violation of the right of freedom of speech and expression.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 07 Aug 15 1.10pm | |
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I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 07 Aug 15 1.32pm | |
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Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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leggedstruggle Croydon 07 Aug 15 1.41pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 9.56am
Quote leggedstruggle at 06 Aug 2015 5.11pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 4.40pm
Burning poppies isn't a crime. Its dislikable, but as an anti-war protest, its pretty much covered by the ideals of democracy allowing right to protest and the right of free expression. Similarly, non-violent protest is effectively a right in the UK, irrespective of what you are protesting against. Of course if you then come along, full of 'righteous anger' at someone's free speech, even if you hate what they're saying or expressing, and confront them, you're committing public order offences. You have the right to protest about it, obviously, but you if you are counter-protesting, then you're the one escalating the situation. For the record, I don't actually believe in Freedom of Speech, but if you're going to have such a stupid law, it has to be free to everyone, all the time. The idea of using anti-terrorism legislation to deal with what amounts otherwise to freedom of speech and expression, is contradictory. A right, by definition, must exceed the capacity of the state to legislate against that right (otherwise its not a right). Even if I utterly disagree with everything someone says, as long as its not incitement, a criminal threat or conspiracy, then its legal. Remember that Islamic terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism has no political power in the UK to oppress or change our rights, laws and freedoms and never will. Only the state can do that. And that's what governments tend to do in these situations, make exceptions. Probably good ones, but then once the precident is set, you have people being ejected under those same anti-terrorist laws for disrupting the Labour conference or protesting arms trade shows. Yet burning a Koran is - young man arrested in Yorkshire for it in December. The Koran is a religious book, and religion is protected group under the Equal Opportunities act of 2004. Its worth of course noting that the 'poppy burners' were also arrested, and individuals have been arrested and charged with burning Poppies as a protest. Of course, when you limit the means of 'peaceful protest', you tend to end up driving people into the arms of those who promote violent protest. So less of the 'its a hypocrisy' as does actually cut both ways. Both of course are a violation of the right of freedom of speech and expression. What has a religious book got to do with equal opportunities. What opportunities? how does burning it hinder these 'opportunities'?
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leggedstruggle Croydon 07 Aug 15 1.42pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 9.52am
Quote fed up eagle at 06 Aug 2015 7.27pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 06 Aug 2015 4.40pm
Burning poppies isn't a crime. Its dislikable, but as an anti-war protest, its pretty much covered by the ideals of democracy allowing right to protest and the right of free expression. Similarly, non-violent protest is effectively a right in the UK, irrespective of what you are protesting against. Of course if you then come along, full of 'righteous anger' at someone's free speech, even if you hate what they're saying or expressing, and confront them, you're committing public order offences. You have the right to protest about it, obviously, but you if you are counter-protesting, then you're the one escalating the situation. For the record, I don't actually believe in Freedom of Speech, but if you're going to have such a stupid law, it has to be free to everyone, all the time. The idea of using anti-terrorism legislation to deal with what amounts otherwise to freedom of speech and expression, is contradictory. A right, by definition, must exceed the capacity of the state to legislate against that right (otherwise its not a right). Even if I utterly disagree with everything someone says, as long as its not incitement, a criminal threat or conspiracy, then its legal. Remember that Islamic terrorism and Islamic Fundamentalism has no political power in the UK to oppress or change our rights, laws and freedoms and never will. Only the state can do that. And that's what governments tend to do in these situations, make exceptions. Probably good ones, but then once the precident is set, you have people being ejected under those same anti-terrorist laws for disrupting the Labour conference or protesting arms trade shows.
Its only incitement if you do so with the intention of causing trouble and know the outcome - As the outcome was people only being outraged a day or two later once it made the news, no criminal offence was committed. The point is, either you have a right or you don't. Religious groups are protected under the Equal Opportunities act, along with sexuality, gender and race, so burning a bible or Koran, is technically a crime. Then again printing cartoons of the prophet Mohammad hasn't been illegal, even when the outcome was known (it is here, under equal opportunities act of 2004, but not in most of Europe). Biggest threat to the UK since Hitler or the cold war, Islamic terrorism is less of a threat to the British way of life than the UK government's popularist dismissal of peoples rights and civil liberties in the pursuit of 'combatting terrorism'. Hyperbole doesn't sit well as an argument. Islamic terrorism has killed as many people in the UK, as three days of road traffic accidents. Its a threat, but its not even remotely a threat to the existence of the UK. As for the migrants in Calais, well the best way of determining who they are, would be to process them. I doubt many of them are Islamic fundamentalist with a terrorist agenda, as they don't tend to move about that way (Terrorist groups tend to look to better funded options, and likely would utilize human trafficking routes, or quasi legal entry, via airports etc). You might have people wanting to be a problem, but they're low level threats, ie potential threats, lacking the financial backing or infrastructure to become an immediate threat. Most terrorists will travel on documentation, probably either a tourist visa or student visa, possibly secured on false or falsified documents. Terrorist groups, tend to look to more effective means of moving assets around. Of course as you now have large groups of people trying to cross, it has become more of an efficient method (ie the cover of a crowd). This is the silliest thing you have said for a long time.
mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler |
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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 07 Aug 15 1.50pm | |
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Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 1.32pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so). Indeed - I know that in London alone at any one time there are around 1000 operations watching Islamic terrorists or dealing with hostile recon reports. (Did some work that involved working with the Met CT unit a few years ago). That kind of intel doesn't just fall into the Security Services lap by accident. Choudry will end up dead one day and it wont be the British, Yanks or Mossad who do it
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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leggedstruggle Croydon 07 Aug 15 1.55pm | |
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Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 1.32pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so). Indeed - I know that in London alone at any one time there are around 1000 operations watching Islamic terrorists or dealing with hostile recon reports. (Did some work that involved working with the Met CT unit a few years ago). That kind of intel doesn't just fall into the Security Services lap by accident. Choudry will end up dead one day and it wont be the British, Yanks or Mossad who do it Unfortunately it is usually the critics of people like Choudary who end up dead:
mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler |
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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 07 Aug 15 2.37pm | |
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Quote leggedstruggle at 07 Aug 2015 1.55pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 1.32pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so). Indeed - I know that in London alone at any one time there are around 1000 operations watching Islamic terrorists or dealing with hostile recon reports. (Did some work that involved working with the Met CT unit a few years ago). That kind of intel doesn't just fall into the Security Services lap by accident. Choudry will end up dead one day and it wont be the British, Yanks or Mossad who do it Unfortunately it is usually the critics of people like Choudary who end up dead: Happily you find more that its other dark age, mediaeval, homophobic, misogynist, racist, hypocritical pieces of human effluent who get it in the arse....current ISIS member death toll is something like 10,000....
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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DanH SW2 07 Aug 15 2.42pm | |
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Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 2.37pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 07 Aug 2015 1.55pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 1.32pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so). Indeed - I know that in London alone at any one time there are around 1000 operations watching Islamic terrorists or dealing with hostile recon reports. (Did some work that involved working with the Met CT unit a few years ago). That kind of intel doesn't just fall into the Security Services lap by accident. Choudry will end up dead one day and it wont be the British, Yanks or Mossad who do it Unfortunately it is usually the critics of people like Choudary who end up dead: Happily you find more that its other dark age, mediaeval, homophobic, misogynist, racist, hypocritical pieces of human effluent who get it in the arse....current ISIS member death toll is something like 10,000....
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The Sash Now residing in Epsom - How Posh 07 Aug 15 2.44pm | |
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Quote DanH at 07 Aug 2015 2.42pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 2.37pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 07 Aug 2015 1.55pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.50pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 07 Aug 2015 1.32pm
Quote The Sash at 07 Aug 2015 1.10pm
I have theory that Choudry is nothing but a shill for the security services How else can you explain the hugely differing actions following the massacre in Tunisia. First actions of the Tunisian authorities was to raid 40 mosques, make arrests of suspected ISIS members and seize a large amount of weapons First actions of the British Authorities was to whisk Choudry and his brood into a safe house for his protection in case of any backlash....errr and that's it He wouldn't be the first. People like this are usually a gift to the security services, as they're a magnet for people becoming 'radicalised'. Islamic terrorist groups of the Al-Qaeda era in the UK have generally been failures, brought to an end before executing their plans. It is interesting that when you look at IS propaganda, they encourage people to avoid association with known radicals and speakers. He doesn't even need to be working for the Security Services (although several of the 'big names' allegedly have worked with the security services or claimed to have done so). Indeed - I know that in London alone at any one time there are around 1000 operations watching Islamic terrorists or dealing with hostile recon reports. (Did some work that involved working with the Met CT unit a few years ago). That kind of intel doesn't just fall into the Security Services lap by accident. Choudry will end up dead one day and it wont be the British, Yanks or Mossad who do it Unfortunately it is usually the critics of people like Choudary who end up dead: Happily you find more that its other dark age, mediaeval, homophobic, misogynist, racist, hypocritical pieces of human effluent who get it in the arse....current ISIS member death toll is something like 10,000....
.....are you the 'get in the arse' one ??
As far as the rules go, it's a website not a democracy - Hambo 3/6/2014 |
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