Taiwan

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ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Apr 23 3.41pm
The Chinese Nationalist Party governs Taiwan and made up the majority of China's first modern government. They fled to Taiwan and set up government there during various suppressions by the Communist Party. It's a twentieth century beef - nothing more, despite Chinese rhetoric. The motto of the nationalist party is nation, democracy and good of the people. They're called something like the Guomingdon. I read a book on it a few years ago. Quite interesting. China really don't have that legitimate a claim on Taiwan - the people have chosen and would no doubt choose again, if the people of China had democracy. I just thought I'd put this here for a bit of context. There is not going to be a negotiated position. The Taiwanese people will fight tooth and nail for what they have. This is not Hong Kong. Red and Blue Army!
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ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 11 Apr 23 3.41pm

The Chinese Nationalist Party governs Taiwan and made up the majority of China's first modern government. They fled to Taiwan and set up government there during various suppressions by the Communist Party. It's a twentieth century beef - nothing more, despite Chinese rhetoric. The motto of the nationalist party is nation, democracy and good of the people. They're called something like the Guomingdon. I read a book on it a few years ago. Quite interesting.
China really don't have that legitimate a claim on Taiwan - the people have chosen and would no doubt choose again, if the people of China had democracy. I just thought I'd put this here for a bit of context.
There is not going to be a negotiated position. The Taiwanese people will fight tooth and nail for what they have. This is not Hong Kong.

Red and Blue Army!

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Stirlingsays 12 Apr 23 2.57am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle So no actual answers then. Just more moaning and pontification. Which only delivers high blood pressure. Do you really think that the media being controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch is similar to the control of the Soviets? I think it's the exact opposite. Add to that an independent BBC and there is no government control of the media. You seem to think, as Trump does, that whatever anyone believes that you don't, is a lie. There have always been differences of opinion and today those differences are both deeper and more strongly expressed, but to describe those you don't share as lies isn't going to help bridge gaps. Nor is describing the frailties of human nature, and it's capacity to believe undeliverable promises. That's unlikely to change. We certainly need to try to improve the system so that those with merit can, and do, attain positions of influence on our behalf. That though will not happen unless we first accept the current system is no longer fit for purpose and persuade people to vote in a government committed to change it. UKIP managed to galvanise enough support to force change, even though the system denied them actual representation. I didn't, and don't, share their cause, but it shows it can be done. I am not without hope. I can envisage a way ahead that delivers a better future and that what we have now is not inevitable at all. I know I shouldn't do this, but I'll bite this time as I have a little time. One of my main issues with your perspective is that you seemingly don't recognise that your exact position was being stated fifty years ago. Those words were proven untrue and hollow then and today they just sound as discordant to what's happening around us as Nero on his fiddle. Perhaps living in nice, safe, conservative Cornwall you find it easy living the fantasy. But sorry, it's not good enough, because the future didn't improve and hasn't...Instead of jam tomorrow we got decline, rising crime, lower social cohesion and trust, rising cost of living, massive unpayable debt and white flight from cities instead and the metrics are the evidence. In fact the people who were right about crime rising and incomes falling are the very people you demonise today....but they were right and you...well you continue with the same 'jam tomorrow' mantra. There is a very famous quote: 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.' You say that I think what others believe must be a lie but I state that my beliefs are in general connected to the actual statistical metrics. For me, if someone's politics widely differs from its affect on the majority then I call that ideological. It's politics that is instead driven from their own personal interests in wishing to remake society independent of how society may feel about it......social engineering. If its social engineering that actually ends with society's metrics improving then I'm always willing to hear it. However, what is very evident is that the people selling mass immigration/multicultualism/Keynesian economics/globalism and all the other massive changes to society weren't interested in that....they were interested in a particular type of society to replace the old one. That's very different and the way it was sold to people was very dishonest....Personally, while some might have believed what they were saying I believe many weren't above lying and yes, I'm angry about that as everyone who gets lied to should be. I put it to you that you need to look at the actual metrics when making a continual 'jam tomorrow' message. You need to say how things will suddenly change rather than continue along their same direction. Because otherwise you sound like a fantasist. You criticise me for my lack of offered solutions. I can reply that I have offered them throughout my many years on Hol. However, I am not paid to solve these....what are now huge and almost intractable problems. If it were my responsibility I certainly would producing better metrics for the nation....however, the left and neo liberals are determined to destroy and the opportunity to stop them was ignored by a trusting previous generation. Sure, if I was asked for an individual solution to an individual problem I could repeat myself but I don't regard the solutions to any of these problems as particularly complex. In short, social conservatism is the solution and that would involve a radical change in direction, which unfortunately isn't going to happen. So while I know it's largely pointless, from time to time, I'm going to point out that the people to blame for this mess and their cheerleaders, need to be reminded of just how irresponsible they have been. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 1.28pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Apr 23 2.57am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

So no actual answers then. Just more moaning and pontification. Which only delivers high blood pressure.

Do you really think that the media being controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch is similar to the control of the Soviets? I think it's the exact opposite. Add to that an independent BBC and there is no government control of the media.

You seem to think, as Trump does, that whatever anyone believes that you don't, is a lie. There have always been differences of opinion and today those differences are both deeper and more strongly expressed, but to describe those you don't share as lies isn't going to help bridge gaps.

Nor is describing the frailties of human nature, and it's capacity to believe undeliverable promises. That's unlikely to change.

We certainly need to try to improve the system so that those with merit can, and do, attain positions of influence on our behalf. That though will not happen unless we first accept the current system is no longer fit for purpose and persuade people to vote in a government committed to change it.

UKIP managed to galvanise enough support to force change, even though the system denied them actual representation. I didn't, and don't, share their cause, but it shows it can be done.

I am not without hope. I can envisage a way ahead that delivers a better future and that what we have now is not inevitable at all.

I know I shouldn't do this, but I'll bite this time as I have a little time.

One of my main issues with your perspective is that you seemingly don't recognise that your exact position was being stated fifty years ago.

Those words were proven untrue and hollow then and today they just sound as discordant to what's happening around us as Nero on his fiddle. Perhaps living in nice, safe, conservative Cornwall you find it easy living the fantasy.

But sorry, it's not good enough, because the future didn't improve and hasn't...Instead of jam tomorrow we got decline, rising crime, lower social cohesion and trust, rising cost of living, massive unpayable debt and white flight from cities instead and the metrics are the evidence. In fact the people who were right about crime rising and incomes falling are the very people you demonise today....but they were right and you...well you continue with the same 'jam tomorrow' mantra.

There is a very famous quote: 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.'

You say that I think what others believe must be a lie but I state that my beliefs are in general connected to the actual statistical metrics. For me, if someone's politics widely differs from its affect on the majority then I call that ideological. It's politics that is instead driven from their own personal interests in wishing to remake society independent of how society may feel about it......social engineering.

If its social engineering that actually ends with society's metrics improving then I'm always willing to hear it. However, what is very evident is that the people selling mass immigration/multicultualism/Keynesian economics/globalism and all the other massive changes to society weren't interested in that....they were interested in a particular type of society to replace the old one.

That's very different and the way it was sold to people was very dishonest....Personally, while some might have believed what they were saying I believe many weren't above lying and yes, I'm angry about that as everyone who gets lied to should be.

I put it to you that you need to look at the actual metrics when making a continual 'jam tomorrow' message. You need to say how things will suddenly change rather than continue along their same direction. Because otherwise you sound like a fantasist.

You criticise me for my lack of offered solutions. I can reply that I have offered them throughout my many years on Hol. However, I am not paid to solve these....what are now huge and almost intractable problems. If it were my responsibility I certainly would producing better metrics for the nation....however, the left and neo liberals are determined to destroy and the opportunity to stop them was ignored by a trusting previous generation.

Sure, if I was asked for an individual solution to an individual problem I could repeat myself but I don't regard the solutions to any of these problems as particularly complex. In short, social conservatism is the solution and that would involve a radical change in direction, which unfortunately isn't going to happen.

So while I know it's largely pointless, from time to time, I'm going to point out that the people to blame for this mess and their cheerleaders, need to be reminded of just how irresponsible they have been.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 1.28pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 12 Apr 23 11.11am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I know I shouldn't do this, but I'll bite this time as I have a little time. One of my main issues with your perspective is that you seemingly don't recognise that your exact position was being stated fifty years ago. Those words were proven untrue and hollow then and today they just sound as discordant to what's happening around us as Nero on his fiddle. Perhaps living in nice, safe, conservative Cornwall you find it easy living the fantasy. But sorry, it's not good enough, because the future didn't improve and hasn't...Instead of jam tomorrow we got decline, rising crime, lower social cohesion and trust, rising cost of living, massive unpayable debt and white flight from cities instead and the metrics are the evidence. In fact the people who were right about crime rising and incomes falling at the very people you demonise today....but they were right and you...well you continue with the same 'jam tomorrow' mantra. There is a very famous quote: 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.' You say that I think what others believe must be a lie but I state that my beliefs are in general connected to the actual statistical metrics. For me, if someone's politics widely differs from its affect on the majority then I call that ideological. It's politics that is instead driven from their own personal interests in wishing to remake society independent of how society may feel about it......social engineering. If its social engineering that actually ends with society's metrics improving then I'm always willing to hear it. However, what is very evident is that the people selling mass immigration/multicultualism/Keynesian economics/globalism and all the other massive changes to society weren't interested in that....they were interested in a particular type of society to replace the old one. That's very different and the way it was sold to people was very dishonest....Personally, while some might have believed what they were saying I believe many weren't above lying and yes, I'm angry about that as everyone who gets lied to should be. I put it to you that you need to look at the actual metrics when making a continual 'jam tomorrow' message. You need to say how things will suddenly change rather than continue along their same direction. Because otherwise you sound like a fantasist. You criticise me for my lack of offered solutions. I can reply that I have offered them throughout my many years on Hol. However, I am not paid to solve these....what are now huge and almost intractable problems. If it were my responsibility I certainly would producing better metrics for the nation....however, the left and neo liberals are determined to destroy and the opportunity to stop them was ignored by a trusting previous generation. Sure, if I was asked for an individual solution to an individual problem I could repeat myself but I don't regard the solutions to any of these problems as particularly complex. In short, social conservatism is the solution and that would involve a radical change in direction, which unfortunately isn't going to happen. So while I know it's largely pointless, from time to time, I'm going to point out that the people to blame for this mess and their cheerleaders, need to be reminded of just how irresponsible they have been. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 4.47am) You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting. I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better. Essentially what it seems to do is confirm what I have said. You don't actually have any answers. You just have "I told you so" and recriminations. When other views of history exist these aren't very valuable. They are just your version of history. Social conservatism isn't the answer. If history has taught us anything that is the most obvious. Today's world is radically different from yesterday's, and we need more openness, not less, to protect our way of life. Which has already changed and will continue to adapt. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 12 Apr 23 11.11am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I know I shouldn't do this, but I'll bite this time as I have a little time.

One of my main issues with your perspective is that you seemingly don't recognise that your exact position was being stated fifty years ago.

But sorry, it's not good enough, because the future didn't improve and hasn't...Instead of jam tomorrow we got decline, rising crime, lower social cohesion and trust, rising cost of living, massive unpayable debt and white flight from cities instead and the metrics are the evidence. In fact the people who were right about crime rising and incomes falling at the very people you demonise today....but they were right and you...well you continue with the same 'jam tomorrow' mantra.

There is a very famous quote: 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.'

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 4.47am)

You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting.

I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better.

Essentially what it seems to do is confirm what I have said. You don't actually have any answers. You just have "I told you so" and recriminations. When other views of history exist these aren't very valuable. They are just your version of history.

Social conservatism isn't the answer. If history has taught us anything that is the most obvious. Today's world is radically different from yesterday's, and we need more openness, not less, to protect our way of life. Which has already changed and will continue to adapt.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Stirlingsays 12 Apr 23 1.16pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting. I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better. Essentially what it seems to do is confirm what I have said. You don't actually have any answers. You just have "I told you so" and recriminations. When other views of history exist these aren't very valuable. They are just your version of history. Social conservatism isn't the answer. If history has taught us anything that is the most obvious. Today's world is radically different from yesterday's, and we need more openness, not less, to protect our way of life. Which has already changed and will continue to adapt. The only reason that today is radically different from 'yesterday' is because people like you made it so. Your politics has ruined a perfectly socially content and wealthy country. The decline was on your watch, with your form of politics and instead of facing this reality you prefer to deny it. I've said this before old bean, but you don't seem to remember....I suspect it's that convenient memory of yours. If you want a possible solution to one of the huge number of problems your politics has created....and again, the declined social and economic metrics are all there to see. Then ask me a specific question. The solutions are there....not all of them are nice and easy now because those opportunities were ignored and fought again by people like you....but sure you are free to ask a specific question. You complain that you don't get answers yet refuse to ask a question. Again, the gall that someone like you, with their permanent 'change is good' message has in hiding himself away in a part of the country that has stubbornly resisted the kind of change you advocate for (much for the better) shows the stark reality of not listening to someone's words but instead observing what they do. Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 1.27pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Apr 23 1.16pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting.

I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better.

The only reason that today is radically different from 'yesterday' is because people like you made it so. Your politics has ruined a perfectly socially content and wealthy country. The decline was on your watch, with your form of politics and instead of facing this reality you prefer to deny it.

I've said this before old bean, but you don't seem to remember....I suspect it's that convenient memory of yours.
If you want a possible solution to one of the huge number of problems your politics has created....and again, the declined social and economic metrics are all there to see. Then ask me a specific question. The solutions are there....not all of them are nice and easy now because those opportunities were ignored and fought again by people like you....but sure you are free to ask a specific question.

You complain that you don't get answers yet refuse to ask a question.

Again, the gall that someone like you, with their permanent 'change is good' message has in hiding himself away in a part of the country that has stubbornly resisted the kind of change you advocate for (much for the better) shows the stark reality of not listening to someone's words but instead observing what they do.

Edited by Stirlingsays (12 Apr 2023 1.27pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Stirlingsays 12 Apr 23 1.26pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting. I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better. Essentially what it seems to do is confirm what I have said. You don't actually have any answers. You just have "I told you so" and recriminations. When other views of history exist these aren't very valuable. They are just your version of history. Social conservatism isn't the answer. If history has taught us anything that is the most obvious. Today's world is radically different from yesterday's, and we need more openness, not less, to protect our way of life. Which has already changed and will continue to adapt. Oh and my health is actually rather good old bean I got into shape this winter and who knows...perhaps not jabbing myself ten ways to Sunday has left me with a robust immune system. Though I will say that I don't criticise you personally for taking those jabs at your age and vulnerability or indeed any adult who decided to.....just for how you treated those that didn't. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Apr 23 1.26pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

You need to watch your health! Having "a little time" at 3 am isn't normal, unless you are a night worker, when you ought to be working, or resting.

I have no time, and even less interest, in replying to this wallow in self-justification. I just hope it made you feel better.

Oh and my health is actually rather good old bean I got into shape this winter and who knows...perhaps not jabbing myself ten ways to Sunday has left me with a robust immune system.

Though I will say that I don't criticise you personally for taking those jabs at your age and vulnerability or indeed any adult who decided to.....just for how you treated those that didn't.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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