Euroscepticism:Euphenism for rightwing Nationalism

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Euroscepticism:Euphenism for rightwing Nationalism

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jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Dec 15 6.03pm
Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm Says ex-PM John Major [Link] Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu. In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty. The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 26 Dec 15 6.03pm

Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm

Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm

Says ex-PM John Major

[Link]

Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism"

Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.

In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty.

The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 26 Dec 15 8.31pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm Says ex-PM John Major [Link] Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu. In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty. The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society. A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace? "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 26 Dec 15 8.31pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm

Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm

Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm

Says ex-PM John Major

[Link]

Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism"

Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.

In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty.

The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society.

A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace?

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

Alert a moderator to this post

jamiemartin721 Reading 26 Dec 15 9.49pm
Quote pefwin at 26 Dec 2015 8.31pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm Says ex-PM John Major [Link] Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu. In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty. The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society. A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace? No, they aren't, because ultimately the eugenics of the 30s was based on a very flawed idea of genetics and evolution, and national socialism only managed to deliver destruction to its people. A functioning society is one that can deliver not only to those who support the government, but to those who don't, which remains one of the single most significant appealing capacities of democratic systems of government - the necessity to provide for minorities within society (admittedly to some degree). "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 26 Dec 15 9.49pm

Quote pefwin at 26 Dec 2015 8.31pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm

Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm

Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm

Says ex-PM John Major

[Link]

Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism"

Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.

In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty.

The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society.

A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace?

No, they aren't, because ultimately the eugenics of the 30s was based on a very flawed idea of genetics and evolution, and national socialism only managed to deliver destruction to its people.

A functioning society is one that can deliver not only to those who support the government, but to those who don't, which remains one of the single most significant appealing capacities of democratic systems of government - the necessity to provide for minorities within society (admittedly to some degree).

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 26 Dec 15 10.21pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 9.49pm Quote pefwin at 26 Dec 2015 8.31pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm Says ex-PM John Major [Link] Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism" Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu. In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty. The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society. A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace? No, they aren't, because ultimately the eugenics of the 30s was based on a very flawed idea of genetics and evolution, and national socialism only managed to deliver destruction to its people. A functioning society is one that can deliver not only to those who support the government, but to those who don't, which remains one of the single most significant appealing capacities of democratic systems of government - the necessity to provide for minorities within society (admittedly to some degree). Indeed for many if not all, in all things, it is the "some degree". "Everything is air-droppable at least once." "When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."
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pefwin

Where you have to have an English ... 26 Dec 15 10.21pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 9.49pm

Quote pefwin at 26 Dec 2015 8.31pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 26 Dec 2015 6.03pm

Quote nhp61 at 23 Dec 2015 4.26pm

Quote Kermit8 at 20 Dec 2015 9.11pm

Says ex-PM John Major

[Link]

Read the article properly and you'll see it was Ken Clarke who said "euroscepticism is, I think, a euphemism for right-wing nationalism"

Clarke will say anything to try and ensure the UK remains a member of his precious eu.

In fairness for some people its true, their issue with the EU isn't about pragmatic reasons of politics or economics reasons, so much as to do with ideology around sovereignty.

The only real concern about right wing nationalism is where it becomes mired in the ideals of nationalism over the practical realities of a functional society.

A society can exist with rampant racist inequalities, eugenics as practised by the national socialists in the 30s etc, but are they really "functioning" for the populace?

No, they aren't, because ultimately the eugenics of the 30s was based on a very flawed idea of genetics and evolution, and national socialism only managed to deliver destruction to its people.

Indeed for many if not all, in all things, it is the "some degree".

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

Alert a moderator to this post

snytaxx London 27 Dec 15 3.24pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 Dec 2015 2.35pm Quote snytaxx at 23 Dec 2015 9.10am Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 4.10pm Quote snytaxx at 22 Dec 2015 1.24pm Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing. If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again. I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?) Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore? Fair question. I'm actually rather hopeful that the potential for a "Federated States of Europe" has gone away thanks to the Euro and immigration / migration crises. I'd argue that UK geopolitical strategy is best served by being part of European Institutions for global trade, policing and participation in international forums. Our voice as an "independent with a few nukes" on the periphery of everything will be diminished. Like you, I don't want any part of currency integration. Where would you see us "anchored"? I think most people like the idea of some sort of European trade bloc but I think thats where the support ends. If you look at the history of the EU it has essentially moved from a simple trade movement towards a political union. At no point has it ever looked at moving the other way. This is why i'm skeptical that the notion of a United States of Europe has or ever will truly go away. For me EU needs total and complete reform, kind of like a two tier membership level where you have countries who wish to politically integrate and countries who just want free trade. The problem is the EU is fundamentally unwilling to offer that. Instead it goes on about having its own police force, defence budget and foreign policy, you name it!. For me, the UK needs to wield its soft power by looking towards the BRICS and commonwealth countries as well as the developing world. Alot of countries out there want to trade with us, why we are prioritising countries based on geographical location as opposed to economical and political suitability? It just doesn't seem a particularly good idea to me. I think ultimately the EU can serve a useful process. There is a massive need for a cross European police force (kind of a federal force) i.e. Interpol with actual powers - Cross national border crime is a massive problem and whilst each country does have its own National Crime teams, it really needs to be centralised around avoiding things like extradition. Despite the usual right wing rants about the ECHR its actually has made enforcement of UK law easier and beneficial towards the population of the Europe (as well as serving to arbitrate on conflicts within nations laws that previously took decades and millions to resolve). Problem of the EU is that it doesn't serve the interests of nations, but businesses (particualy trans-national corporations). The biggest issue isn't soverignity, but working migration that serves to undermine low salary and increasingly medium level salaried jobs through importation of foreign talent (leading to issues both nations, the supplied and supplier - try getting a polish plumber in Poland during the period prior to the crash). Yes the EU can serve a useful purpose, but I significantly doubt Dave will get the deal that makes it a predominantly useful thing to be part of without all the strings which come with it. You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation. Your point about the ECHR might be right, but is irrelevant to my earlier point. The EU and the ECHR are separate entities, I believe even a no vote in the referendum would still leave us a member of the ECHR. Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty.
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snytaxx

London 27 Dec 15 3.24pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 23 Dec 2015 2.35pm

Quote snytaxx at 23 Dec 2015 9.10am

Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 4.10pm

Quote snytaxx at 22 Dec 2015 1.24pm

Quote Mr_Gristle at 22 Dec 2015 12.45pm

I feel that I have much more in common with the Dutch, Germans and Scandanavians than I ever will with Americans. You know, countries where not quite everything has been sacrificed on the altars of corporate consumerism and outsourcing.

If people think that a UK exit from the EU will see it become an independent beacon of "Britishness" and revert to some sort of 50's - 60's (or even Victorian) idyll, then I suggest they think again.

I very much agree with you on this point, but I reject this notion that you have to be part of a federalised Europe just to be close to those countries in question. I'm pretty sure that not every Scandinavian is even in the EU. (Norway?)

Pro EU supporters are very well geared to defending their viewpoint from attacks from the right such as UKIP and eurosceptic conservatives for example. Mocking the idea that we will return to the good old days is all well and just, but what would you say to the idea however that it is you (the in campaign) who is clinging to a bygone era European federalism and that staying in the EU is anchoring the UK to geopolitical strategy that just doesn't suit it anymore?

Fair question. I'm actually rather hopeful that the potential for a "Federated States of Europe" has gone away thanks to the Euro and immigration / migration crises.

I'd argue that UK geopolitical strategy is best served by being part of European Institutions for global trade, policing and participation in international forums. Our voice as an "independent with a few nukes" on the periphery of everything will be diminished. Like you, I don't want any part of currency integration.

Where would you see us "anchored"?

I think most people like the idea of some sort of European trade bloc but I think thats where the support ends. If you look at the history of the EU it has essentially moved from a simple trade movement towards a political union. At no point has it ever looked at moving the other way. This is why i'm skeptical that the notion of a United States of Europe has or ever will truly go away.

For me EU needs total and complete reform, kind of like a two tier membership level where you have countries who wish to politically integrate and countries who just want free trade. The problem is the EU is fundamentally unwilling to offer that. Instead it goes on about having its own police force, defence budget and foreign policy, you name it!.

For me, the UK needs to wield its soft power by looking towards the BRICS and commonwealth countries as well as the developing world. Alot of countries out there want to trade with us, why we are prioritising countries based on geographical location as opposed to economical and political suitability? It just doesn't seem a particularly good idea to me.

I think ultimately the EU can serve a useful process. There is a massive need for a cross European police force (kind of a federal force) i.e. Interpol with actual powers - Cross national border crime is a massive problem and whilst each country does have its own National Crime teams, it really needs to be centralised around avoiding things like extradition.

Despite the usual right wing rants about the ECHR its actually has made enforcement of UK law easier and beneficial towards the population of the Europe (as well as serving to arbitrate on conflicts within nations laws that previously took decades and millions to resolve).

Problem of the EU is that it doesn't serve the interests of nations, but businesses (particualy trans-national corporations). The biggest issue isn't soverignity, but working migration that serves to undermine low salary and increasingly medium level salaried jobs through importation of foreign talent (leading to issues both nations, the supplied and supplier - try getting a polish plumber in Poland during the period prior to the crash).

Yes the EU can serve a useful purpose, but I significantly doubt Dave will get the deal that makes it a predominantly useful thing to be part of without all the strings which come with it.

You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation.

Your point about the ECHR might be right, but is irrelevant to my earlier point. The EU and the ECHR are separate entities, I believe even a no vote in the referendum would still leave us a member of the ECHR.

Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Dec 15 8.09pm
Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation. Essentially if you want to crack trans-national crime its more effective to have a 'federal' law enforcement agency that operations without relying on using two or more separate agencies (and running the risks of corruption within those individual national forces). Especially when dealing with counter-terrorist policing. There is a tendency of nation states to focus on their own interests in terms of trans national crime as a priority (heroin being sold in a country will prove to be more of a priority than that smuggled from a country) - The likes of human traffickers who are shipping people into another nation will be overlooked for those providing slave labour within a country. Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty. Quite agree with this. Although the EU freedom of movement also benefits a lot of people from the UK - the consequences of this is that it serves corporate interests in high cost of living countries by providing cheap labour. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 27 Dec 15 8.09pm

Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation.

Essentially if you want to crack trans-national crime its more effective to have a 'federal' law enforcement agency that operations without relying on using two or more separate agencies (and running the risks of corruption within those individual national forces). Especially when dealing with counter-terrorist policing.

There is a tendency of nation states to focus on their own interests in terms of trans national crime as a priority (heroin being sold in a country will prove to be more of a priority than that smuggled from a country) - The likes of human traffickers who are shipping people into another nation will be overlooked for those providing slave labour within a country.

Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm
Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty.

Quite agree with this. Although the EU freedom of movement also benefits a lot of people from the UK - the consequences of this is that it serves corporate interests in high cost of living countries by providing cheap labour.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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becky over the moon 27 Dec 15 8.29pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Dec 2015 8.09pm Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation. Essentially if you want to crack trans-national crime its more effective to have a 'federal' law enforcement agency that operations without relying on using two or more separate agencies (and running the risks of corruption within those individual national forces). Especially when dealing with counter-terrorist policing. There is a tendency of nation states to focus on their own interests in terms of trans national crime as a priority (heroin being sold in a country will prove to be more of a priority than that smuggled from a country) - The likes of human traffickers who are shipping people into another nation will be overlooked for those providing slave labour within a country. Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty. Quite agree with this. Although the EU freedom of movement also benefits a lot of people from the UK - the consequences of this is that it serves corporate interests in high cost of living countries by providing cheap labour. The downside being that it deprives the home nation of the best of it's workforce, thus depressing it's economy even further. A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers
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becky

over the moon 27 Dec 15 8.29pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Dec 2015 8.09pm

Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm
Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty.

Quite agree with this. Although the EU freedom of movement also benefits a lot of people from the UK - the consequences of this is that it serves corporate interests in high cost of living countries by providing cheap labour.

The downside being that it deprives the home nation of the best of it's workforce, thus depressing it's economy even further.

A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

Alert a moderator to this post | Board Moderator

jamiemartin721 Reading 28 Dec 15 11.22am
Quote becky at 27 Dec 2015 8.29pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Dec 2015 8.09pm Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm You can have a European police force without the EU, although I dispute quite why we would need one. Proper information sharing is a good start but again, dont need to be a EU member to have this, just basic co-operation. Essentially if you want to crack trans-national crime its more effective to have a 'federal' law enforcement agency that operations without relying on using two or more separate agencies (and running the risks of corruption within those individual national forces). Especially when dealing with counter-terrorist policing. There is a tendency of nation states to focus on their own interests in terms of trans national crime as a priority (heroin being sold in a country will prove to be more of a priority than that smuggled from a country) - The likes of human traffickers who are shipping people into another nation will be overlooked for those providing slave labour within a country. Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty. Quite agree with this. Although the EU freedom of movement also benefits a lot of people from the UK - the consequences of this is that it serves corporate interests in high cost of living countries by providing cheap labour. The downside being that it deprives the home nation of the best of it's workforce, thus depressing it's economy even further. Very true, although usually this leads to a economic bonus based on income sent home and when the individual returns to their home nation - The reality is the only winners from this kind of deal tend to be the companies that employ cheap migrant labour. Probably the best way to fix the issue would be to raise the minimum wage significantly or offer tax breaks to people in the UK who move for work (i.e. being able to reclaim the cost of accommodation, subsistence and travel). Its specifically just that, UK building workers have a very long history of working overseas and across the EU when the building economy has been depressed. They even made TV series about it. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 28 Dec 15 11.22am

Quote becky at 27 Dec 2015 8.29pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 27 Dec 2015 8.09pm

Quote snytaxx at 27 Dec 2015 3.24pm
Finally I would argue a country being able to properly set its own immigration laws as quite a big issue regarding sovereignty.

The downside being that it deprives the home nation of the best of it's workforce, thus depressing it's economy even further.

Very true, although usually this leads to a economic bonus based on income sent home and when the individual returns to their home nation - The reality is the only winners from this kind of deal tend to be the companies that employ cheap migrant labour.

Probably the best way to fix the issue would be to raise the minimum wage significantly or offer tax breaks to people in the UK who move for work (i.e. being able to reclaim the cost of accommodation, subsistence and travel).

Its specifically just that, UK building workers have a very long history of working overseas and across the EU when the building economy has been depressed. They even made TV series about it.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Alert a moderator to this post

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