French bomb ISIS

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French bomb ISIS

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leggedstruggle Croydon 01 Oct 15 4.18pm
Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 4.05pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 2.02pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 1.29pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 11.43am Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 11.18am Quote topcat at 01 Oct 2015 10.46am Quote oldcodger at 30 Sep 2015 9.50pm So now we have Russians and Syrian army bombing ISIS and most likely rebels and the FSA. The IDF bombing Syrian Army positions, the Coalition forces/Arabs/Kurds bombing ISIS, the Turks bombing the Kurds. A country ripped apart by proxy wars and vested interests. Sometimes leaving a party early isn't such a bad idea.. Indeed. It is one of those conflicts that is easy to see who the bad guys are, but hard to who the good guys are. There are never good guys and bad guys. I'm pretty sure if you were to ask someone on 'the bad guys side' that they would consider themselves good guys. Its the Mitchell and Webb SS sketch.... Nonsense. There were and are plenty of 'bad guys', Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Pol Pot, Sadam, Mugabe, to name a few. Pretty sure that the people who followed them didn't regard themselves as bad guys though, is the point. Obviously I agree with that list, but everyone thinks they 'doing the right thing and are good guys'. Usually until its no longer in their best interests. White hats and black hats, are for movies and childrens stories. But in reality, its the kind of mentality that ends up justifying things like the holocaust or Year Zero. And your attitude of giving them the benefit of the doubt leads to their rise in the first place. Does it really? I was thinking it was down the rise of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the movement of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq switching its attentions to Syria, following the uprisings of the Arab Spring there. So I am quite surprised that actually understanding a very basic truth about human psychology, was responsible for the rise of ISIL, ISIS and its metamorphosis into IS. But then of course as far back as 2003 I was commenting that overthrowing the Saddam regime would result in a rise in Islamic fundamentalism, and then during the Arab spring, that ultimately Islamist factions would benefit, and again with Libya and the civil war in Syria. But yeah, my fault. Definitely. As you probably already know, I am referring to 'appeasement' - in the past, that towards Hitler, that towards communism by the European left and currently that towards the inherent evil in Islam. mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 01 Oct 15 4.18pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 4.05pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 2.02pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 1.29pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 11.43am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 11.18am

Quote topcat at 01 Oct 2015 10.46am

Quote oldcodger at 30 Sep 2015 9.50pm

So now we have Russians and Syrian army bombing ISIS and most likely rebels and the FSA. The IDF bombing Syrian Army positions, the Coalition forces/Arabs/Kurds bombing ISIS, the Turks bombing the Kurds. A country ripped apart by proxy wars and vested interests. Sometimes leaving a party early isn't such a bad idea..

Indeed. It is one of those conflicts that is easy to see who the bad guys are, but hard to who the good guys are.

There are never good guys and bad guys. I'm pretty sure if you were to ask someone on 'the bad guys side' that they would consider themselves good guys.

Its the Mitchell and Webb SS sketch....

Nonsense. There were and are plenty of 'bad guys', Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Pol Pot, Sadam, Mugabe, to name a few.

Pretty sure that the people who followed them didn't regard themselves as bad guys though, is the point. Obviously I agree with that list, but everyone thinks they 'doing the right thing and are good guys'. Usually until its no longer in their best interests.

White hats and black hats, are for movies and childrens stories. But in reality, its the kind of mentality that ends up justifying things like the holocaust or Year Zero.

And your attitude of giving them the benefit of the doubt leads to their rise in the first place.

Does it really? I was thinking it was down the rise of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the movement of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq switching its attentions to Syria, following the uprisings of the Arab Spring there.

So I am quite surprised that actually understanding a very basic truth about human psychology, was responsible for the rise of ISIL, ISIS and its metamorphosis into IS.

But then of course as far back as 2003 I was commenting that overthrowing the Saddam regime would result in a rise in Islamic fundamentalism, and then during the Arab spring, that ultimately Islamist factions would benefit, and again with Libya and the civil war in Syria.

But yeah, my fault. Definitely.

As you probably already know, I am referring to 'appeasement' - in the past, that towards Hitler, that towards communism by the European left and currently that towards the inherent evil in Islam.

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

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Hrolf The Ganger 01 Oct 15 4.29pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm To Legged's post. Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people. Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability. Unfortunately, in an us against them situation, we can't afford too much objectivity. It's about self preservation against an enemy who doesn't give a hoot about us. I wouldn't have given a monkey's if Hitler had fancied himself as the leader of a superior Aryan race if he hadn't invaded Europe and killed 6 million Jews but that way of thinking galvanized his followers and created self justification. That's how you get people to fight and kill. Good and bad are luxuries you can afford yourself in peace time in that context. Were we "good" when we saturation bombed Dresden ? It was a necessary evil but I couldn't call it good. The same with bombing Japan Are we right to defend ourself against aggressors by all means necessary ? You bet ya. If Hitler had won the War there would not be an Israel or maybe not an ISIS. Does that make him good ? Stalin helped defeat Hitler. Does that make him good ? Life is just not that simple. Leave your desks tidy..... Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm) Of course it is not simple. There are no absolute goods and no absolute bads, there are degrees. No person is absolutely good or absolutely evil. But it is quite justifiable to judge someone as principally evil - say Ian Brady. The bombing of Japan and the bombing of Germany were part of an effort to destroy evil movements. To argue that those actions themselves were intrinsically evil is like saying it is evil to amputate a gangrene limb. I don't think it is evil that the state of Israel exists. Yes, Stalin helped to defeat Hitler - only because he had been attacked, he would have been quite happy to have sat back and watch us defeated and the Jews exterminated - one of the most evil b******s who ever lived. In the end we defend what we consider to be right or in our own self interest. Obviously that is a matter of perspective. Good, bad and evil are just human constructs. There does seem to be a universal concept of right and wrong built into to us but it's application seems to depend on circumstances. Brady is an extreme psychopath who has done things that even other psychopaths might consider wrong, but to use the word evil gives a religious connotation that really has no meaning in the real world. It is a word that allows a simple but unscientific description much like good and bad. Islam is neither good or evil. It is being used by a military group and some individuals as a propaganda weapon selecting aspects of it's teachings for that purpose. Religion has often been used for these reasons in the past so it is nothing new. I am totally against religion in general but I will not vilify all members of a particular religion because of a certain section. That is illogical and counter productive. The Ku Klux Klan are Christians or so they claim. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 4.40pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

01 Oct 15 4.29pm

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Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm

To Legged's post.

Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people.

Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability.

Unfortunately, in an us against them situation, we can't afford too much objectivity. It's about self preservation against an enemy who doesn't give a hoot about us.
I wouldn't have given a monkey's if Hitler had fancied himself as the leader of a superior Aryan race if he hadn't invaded Europe and killed 6 million Jews but that way of thinking galvanized his followers and created self justification. That's how you get people to fight and kill.
Good and bad are luxuries you can afford yourself in peace time in that context. Were we "good" when we saturation bombed Dresden ? It was a necessary evil but I couldn't call it good. The same with bombing Japan
Are we right to defend ourself against aggressors by all means necessary ? You bet ya.
If Hitler had won the War there would not be an Israel or maybe not an ISIS. Does that make him good ? Stalin helped defeat Hitler. Does that make him good ?

Life is just not that simple.

Leave your desks tidy.....

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm)

Of course it is not simple. There are no absolute goods and no absolute bads, there are degrees. No person is absolutely good or absolutely evil. But it is quite justifiable to judge someone as principally evil - say Ian Brady. The bombing of Japan and the bombing of Germany were part of an effort to destroy evil movements. To argue that those actions themselves were intrinsically evil is like saying it is evil to amputate a gangrene limb. I don't think it is evil that the state of Israel exists. Yes, Stalin helped to defeat Hitler - only because he had been attacked, he would have been quite happy to have sat back and watch us defeated and the Jews exterminated - one of the most evil b******s who ever lived.

In the end we defend what we consider to be right or in our own self interest. Obviously that is a matter of perspective. Good, bad and evil are just human constructs.
There does seem to be a universal concept of right and wrong built into to us but it's application seems to depend on circumstances.
Brady is an extreme psychopath who has done things that even other psychopaths might consider wrong, but to use the word evil gives a religious connotation that really has no meaning in the real world. It is a word that allows a simple but unscientific description much like good and bad.
Islam is neither good or evil. It is being used by a military group and some individuals as a propaganda weapon selecting aspects of it's teachings for that purpose. Religion has often been used for these reasons in the past so it is nothing new.
I am totally against religion in general but I will not vilify all members of a particular religion because of a certain section. That is illogical and counter productive.
The Ku Klux Klan are Christians or so they claim.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 4.40pm)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 01 Oct 15 4.29pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 4.18pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 4.05pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 2.02pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 1.29pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 11.43am Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 11.18am Quote topcat at 01 Oct 2015 10.46am Quote oldcodger at 30 Sep 2015 9.50pm So now we have Russians and Syrian army bombing ISIS and most likely rebels and the FSA. The IDF bombing Syrian Army positions, the Coalition forces/Arabs/Kurds bombing ISIS, the Turks bombing the Kurds. A country ripped apart by proxy wars and vested interests. Sometimes leaving a party early isn't such a bad idea.. Indeed. It is one of those conflicts that is easy to see who the bad guys are, but hard to who the good guys are. There are never good guys and bad guys. I'm pretty sure if you were to ask someone on 'the bad guys side' that they would consider themselves good guys. Its the Mitchell and Webb SS sketch.... Nonsense. There were and are plenty of 'bad guys', Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Pol Pot, Sadam, Mugabe, to name a few. Pretty sure that the people who followed them didn't regard themselves as bad guys though, is the point. Obviously I agree with that list, but everyone thinks they 'doing the right thing and are good guys'. Usually until its no longer in their best interests. White hats and black hats, are for movies and childrens stories. But in reality, its the kind of mentality that ends up justifying things like the holocaust or Year Zero. And your attitude of giving them the benefit of the doubt leads to their rise in the first place. Does it really? I was thinking it was down the rise of Al-Qaeda in Iraq and the movement of the Sunni insurgency in Iraq switching its attentions to Syria, following the uprisings of the Arab Spring there. So I am quite surprised that actually understanding a very basic truth about human psychology, was responsible for the rise of ISIL, ISIS and its metamorphosis into IS. But then of course as far back as 2003 I was commenting that overthrowing the Saddam regime would result in a rise in Islamic fundamentalism, and then during the Arab spring, that ultimately Islamist factions would benefit, and again with Libya and the civil war in Syria. But yeah, my fault. Definitely. As you probably already know, I am referring to 'appeasement' - in the past, that towards Hitler, that towards communism by the European left and currently that towards the inherent evil in Islam. Never been one for appeasement. I don't say it often, but Thatcher was right over the Falklands, once British Citizens were under occupation, there was no option but to liberate those people. Similarly with IS, we just need to be certain that we're actually making things better by our intervention. The German Blitz for example had the opposite effect on those targeted than the German command desired, it consolidated their will to fight and for the most part created a spirit of resistance and increased the desire to fight. Obviously, we don't actually want to do the same thing in Syria. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 01 Oct 15 4.29pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 4.18pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 4.05pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 2.02pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 1.29pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 11.43am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 01 Oct 2015 11.18am

Quote topcat at 01 Oct 2015 10.46am

Quote oldcodger at 30 Sep 2015 9.50pm

Indeed. It is one of those conflicts that is easy to see who the bad guys are, but hard to who the good guys are.

There are never good guys and bad guys. I'm pretty sure if you were to ask someone on 'the bad guys side' that they would consider themselves good guys.

Its the Mitchell and Webb SS sketch....

Nonsense. There were and are plenty of 'bad guys', Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Pol Pot, Sadam, Mugabe, to name a few.

White hats and black hats, are for movies and childrens stories. But in reality, its the kind of mentality that ends up justifying things like the holocaust or Year Zero.

And your attitude of giving them the benefit of the doubt leads to their rise in the first place.

So I am quite surprised that actually understanding a very basic truth about human psychology, was responsible for the rise of ISIL, ISIS and its metamorphosis into IS.

But yeah, my fault. Definitely.

As you probably already know, I am referring to 'appeasement' - in the past, that towards Hitler, that towards communism by the European left and currently that towards the inherent evil in Islam.

Never been one for appeasement. I don't say it often, but Thatcher was right over the Falklands, once British Citizens were under occupation, there was no option but to liberate those people.

Similarly with IS, we just need to be certain that we're actually making things better by our intervention. The German Blitz for example had the opposite effect on those targeted than the German command desired, it consolidated their will to fight and for the most part created a spirit of resistance and increased the desire to fight.

Obviously, we don't actually want to do the same thing in Syria.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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leggedstruggle Croydon 01 Oct 15 4.39pm
Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 4.29pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm To Legged's post. Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people. Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability. Unfortunately, in an us against them situation, we can't afford too much objectivity. It's about self preservation against an enemy who doesn't give a hoot about us. I wouldn't have given a monkey's if Hitler had fancied himself as the leader of a superior Aryan race if he hadn't invaded Europe and killed 6 million Jews but that way of thinking galvanized his followers and created self justification. That's how you get people to fight and kill. Good and bad are luxuries you can afford yourself in peace time in that context. Were we "good" when we saturation bombed Dresden ? It was a necessary evil but I couldn't call it good. The same with bombing Japan Are we right to defend ourself against aggressors by all means necessary ? You bet ya. If Hitler had won the War there would not be an Israel or maybe not an ISIS. Does that make him good ? Stalin helped defeat Hitler. Does that make him good ? Life is just not that simple. Leave your desks tidy..... Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm) Of course it is not simple. There are no absolute goods and no absolute bads, there are degrees. No person is absolutely good or absolutely evil. But it is quite justifiable to judge someone as principally evil - say Ian Brady. The bombing of Japan and the bombing of Germany were part of an effort to destroy evil movements. To argue that those actions themselves were intrinsically evil is like saying it is evil to amputate a gangrene limb. I don't think it is evil that the state of Israel exists. Yes, Stalin helped to defeat Hitler - only because he had been attacked, he would have been quite happy to have sat back and watch us defeated and the Jews exterminated - one of the most evil b******s who ever lived. In the end we defend what we consider to be right or in our own self interest. Obviously that is a matter of perspective. Good, bad and evil are just human constructs. There does seem to be a universal concept of right and wrong built into to us but it's application seems to depend on circumstances. Brady is am extreme psychopath who has done things that even other psychopaths might consider wrong, but to use the word evil gives a religious connotation that really has no meaning in the real world. It is a word that allows a simple but unscientific description much like good and bad. It is half the problem today that malevolent evil is not acknowledged. mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler
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leggedstruggle

Croydon 01 Oct 15 4.39pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 4.29pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm

To Legged's post.

Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people.

Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability.

Life is just not that simple.

Leave your desks tidy.....

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm)

It is half the problem today that malevolent evil is not acknowledged.

mother-in-law is an anagram of woman hitler

Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger 01 Oct 15 4.44pm
Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 4.39pm Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 4.29pm Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm To Legged's post. Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people. Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability. Unfortunately, in an us against them situation, we can't afford too much objectivity. It's about self preservation against an enemy who doesn't give a hoot about us. I wouldn't have given a monkey's if Hitler had fancied himself as the leader of a superior Aryan race if he hadn't invaded Europe and killed 6 million Jews but that way of thinking galvanized his followers and created self justification. That's how you get people to fight and kill. Good and bad are luxuries you can afford yourself in peace time in that context. Were we "good" when we saturation bombed Dresden ? It was a necessary evil but I couldn't call it good. The same with bombing Japan Are we right to defend ourself against aggressors by all means necessary ? You bet ya. If Hitler had won the War there would not be an Israel or maybe not an ISIS. Does that make him good ? Stalin helped defeat Hitler. Does that make him good ? Life is just not that simple. Leave your desks tidy..... Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm) Of course it is not simple. There are no absolute goods and no absolute bads, there are degrees. No person is absolutely good or absolutely evil. But it is quite justifiable to judge someone as principally evil - say Ian Brady. The bombing of Japan and the bombing of Germany were part of an effort to destroy evil movements. To argue that those actions themselves were intrinsically evil is like saying it is evil to amputate a gangrene limb. I don't think it is evil that the state of Israel exists. Yes, Stalin helped to defeat Hitler - only because he had been attacked, he would have been quite happy to have sat back and watch us defeated and the Jews exterminated - one of the most evil b******s who ever lived. In the end we defend what we consider to be right or in our own self interest. Obviously that is a matter of perspective. Good, bad and evil are just human constructs. There does seem to be a universal concept of right and wrong built into to us but it's application seems to depend on circumstances. Brady is am extreme psychopath who has done things that even other psychopaths might consider wrong, but to use the word evil gives a religious connotation that really has no meaning in the real world. It is a word that allows a simple but unscientific description much like good and bad. It is half the problem today that malevolent evil is not acknowledged. I'm not sure that getting hung up on words is of much use. There is too much of that around today. The more power you give a word the more of a problem it becomes. Some perspective is a good thing.
Alert a moderator to this post

Hrolf The Ganger

01 Oct 15 4.44pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 4.39pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 4.29pm

Quote leggedstruggle at 01 Oct 2015 3.42pm

Quote Hrolf The Ganger at 01 Oct 2015 3.21pm

To Legged's post.

Hitler might have said that about the Jews or Gay people.

Nothing wrong with trying to be objective. Most people on here don't seem to have the ability.

Life is just not that simple.

Leave your desks tidy.....

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (01 Oct 2015 3.23pm)

It is half the problem today that malevolent evil is not acknowledged.

I'm not sure that getting hung up on words is of much use. There is too much of that around today.
The more power you give a word the more of a problem it becomes.
Some perspective is a good thing.

Alert a moderator to this post

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