Is this Racist?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Dec 16 1.51pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger We will never go back to the 60's and 70's. People are now used to seeing lots of non white faces. This is about how we want to be as human beings. Do we want to all run around acting like school children taking offense where ever possible and finding new ever more feeble reasons to dislike each other or do we all adopt a more mature approach and stop pandering to pettiness. How offensive is blacking up in the grand scheme of things? Is it actually worse than whiteing up? Answer, no. To continue to constantly reference historical examples of prejudice to justify saying the opposite is counter productive. This is the here and now and we all need to grow up and recognise that this sort of respect for others feelings has to work both ways and that tolerance sometimes means giving people of all colours a little wriggle room for taste and manners. What ever you say and do you will offend someone. This must be recognised sooner rather than late in a world where opinion travels round social media like a pandemic. I think the here and now is very much informed by the past, and that the experiences of other ethnic and minority groups of things like blacking up, can be very different. Granted I think we do need to see this not as something that 'is enforced' though. Its certainly not news worthy. I tend to swear quite a lot. And that will offend some people, I don't intend it, and if I do, and they're offended (usually by c**t) then I will apologise and try not to do it again. Why, because its a two way street. I didn't intend offence, but I did cause it, and it was my fault. You have to meet people in the middle, not at your own opinion. Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm. Its like referring to the Chinese takeout as 'the chinky' its all well and good, until you actually offend someone. You probably mean nothing by it, you probably didn't even think about it when you said it - but the truth is, you probably should have thought about how that might affect Chinese people, before you said it. You can't have tolerance, without understanding what you are being tolerant off. Where do we draw the line, who draws the line. Do white people get to decide what is and isn't racist? Or do we need to pay attention to what people find offensive in order to structure a more tolerant society. Whilst I like your idea of a uptopia in which everyone is reasonable, how reasonable is it to black up, knowing that people are offended by blacking up? Tolerance works both ways. Its probably a good idea to steer clear of the kind of thing that sets the cat among the pidgeons. Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Dec 16 1.51pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

We will never go back to the 60's and 70's. People are now used to seeing lots of non white faces.

This is about how we want to be as human beings. Do we want to all run around acting like school children taking offense where ever possible and finding new ever more feeble reasons to dislike each other or do we all adopt a more mature approach and stop pandering to pettiness.
How offensive is blacking up in the grand scheme of things? Is it actually worse than whiteing up? Answer, no. To continue to constantly reference historical examples of prejudice to justify saying the opposite is counter productive. This is the here and now and we all need to grow up and recognise that this sort of respect for others feelings has to work both ways and that tolerance sometimes means giving people of all colours a little wriggle room for taste and manners. What ever you say and do you will offend someone. This must be recognised sooner rather than late in a world where opinion travels round social media like a pandemic.

I think the here and now is very much informed by the past, and that the experiences of other ethnic and minority groups of things like blacking up, can be very different. Granted I think we do need to see this not as something that 'is enforced' though. Its certainly not news worthy.

I tend to swear quite a lot. And that will offend some people, I don't intend it, and if I do, and they're offended (usually by c**t) then I will apologise and try not to do it again. Why, because its a two way street. I didn't intend offence, but I did cause it, and it was my fault. You have to meet people in the middle, not at your own opinion.

Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm.

Its like referring to the Chinese takeout as 'the chinky' its all well and good, until you actually offend someone. You probably mean nothing by it, you probably didn't even think about it when you said it - but the truth is, you probably should have thought about how that might affect Chinese people, before you said it.

You can't have tolerance, without understanding what you are being tolerant off. Where do we draw the line, who draws the line. Do white people get to decide what is and isn't racist? Or do we need to pay attention to what people find offensive in order to structure a more tolerant society.

Whilst I like your idea of a uptopia in which everyone is reasonable, how reasonable is it to black up, knowing that people are offended by blacking up? Tolerance works both ways. Its probably a good idea to steer clear of the kind of thing that sets the cat among the pidgeons.

Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Part Time James 23 Dec 16 1.56pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think the here and now is very much informed by the past, and that the experiences of other ethnic and minority groups of things like blacking up, can be very different. Granted I think we do need to see this not as something that 'is enforced' though. Its certainly not news worthy. I tend to swear quite a lot. And that will offend some people, I don't intend it, and if I do, and they're offended (usually by ct) then I will apologise and try not to do it again.** Why, because its a two way street. I didn't intend offence, but I did cause it, and it was my fault. You have to meet people in the middle, not at your own opinion. Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm. Its like referring to the Chinese takeout as 'the chinky' its all well and good, until you actually offend someone. You probably mean nothing by it, you probably didn't even think about it when you said it - but the truth is, you probably should have thought about how that might affect Chinese people, before you said it. You can't have tolerance, without understanding what you are being tolerant off. Where do we draw the line, who draws the line. Do white people get to decide what is and isn't racist? Or do we need to pay attention to what people find offensive in order to structure a more tolerant society. Whilst I like your idea of a uptopia in which everyone is reasonable, how reasonable is it to black up, knowing that people are offended by blacking up? Tolerance works both ways. Its probably a good idea to steer clear of the kind of thing that sets the cat among the pidgeons. Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face. Nail on head really. If people tell you that something offends them and asks you not to do it again then it's fair cop. Problem is people seem to make such an over reaction about things (usually on someone else's behalf) and you hear about people up in court for it. IF someone specifically informs you they are offended, apologise to them, don't do it again, no big deal.
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Part Time James

23 Dec 16 1.56pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

I tend to swear quite a lot. And that will offend some people, I don't intend it, and if I do, and they're offended (usually by c**t) then I will apologise and try not to do it again. Why, because its a two way street. I didn't intend offence, but I did cause it, and it was my fault. You have to meet people in the middle, not at your own opinion.

Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm.

Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face.

Nail on head really. If people tell you that something offends them and asks you not to do it again then it's fair cop. Problem is people seem to make such an over reaction about things (usually on someone else's behalf) and you hear about people up in court for it. IF someone specifically informs you they are offended, apologise to them, don't do it again, no big deal.

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Part Time James 23 Dec 16 1.58pm
I should caveat that I do appreciate that not everyone feels comfortable asking you not to do things again, but you know the sentiment I refer to hopefully. I say a lot of offensive stuff too but hopefully it's obvious to people that I am approachable and would back down if challenged and if necessary, apologise.
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Part Time James

23 Dec 16 1.58pm

I should caveat that I do appreciate that not everyone feels comfortable asking you not to do things again, but you know the sentiment I refer to hopefully. I say a lot of offensive stuff too but hopefully it's obvious to people that I am approachable and would back down if challenged and if necessary, apologise.

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silvertop Portishead 23 Dec 16 2.30pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Is it racist - Its racially very insensitive, given the history of blacking up, and then blacking up and going as a beach sunglass seller isn't the cleverest or wisest move, and always likely to be risky. But it doesn't make him a racist. The important question is whether anyone there was offended. Its a pretty stupid thing to do (and if you're going to black up, at least go fantasy or celebrity). He's also old enough to understand why blacking up is very racially insensitive and likely to cause offence. Would it have been OK had he gone as an accountant?
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silvertop

Portishead 23 Dec 16 2.30pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Is it racist - Its racially very insensitive, given the history of blacking up, and then blacking up and going as a beach sunglass seller isn't the cleverest or wisest move, and always likely to be risky.

But it doesn't make him a racist. The important question is whether anyone there was offended. Its a pretty stupid thing to do (and if you're going to black up, at least go fantasy or celebrity).

He's also old enough to understand why blacking up is very racially insensitive and likely to cause offence.

Would it have been OK had he gone as an accountant?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 23 Dec 16 2.33pm
Originally posted by silvertop Would it have been OK had he gone as an accountant? No, but if he went as a black celebrity, it might have been. I suspect its an in joke. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 23 Dec 16 2.33pm

Originally posted by silvertop

Would it have been OK had he gone as an accountant?

No, but if he went as a black celebrity, it might have been. I suspect its an in joke.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Dec 16 3.51pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 I think the here and now is very much informed by the past, and that the experiences of other ethnic and minority groups of things like blacking up, can be very different. Granted I think we do need to see this not as something that 'is enforced' though. Its certainly not news worthy. I tend to swear quite a lot. And that will offend some people, I don't intend it, and if I do, and they're offended (usually by c**t) then I will apologise and try not to do it again. Why, because its a two way street. I didn't intend offence, but I did cause it, and it was my fault. You have to meet people in the middle, not at your own opinion. Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm. Its like referring to the Chinese takeout as 'the chinky' its all well and good, until you actually offend someone. You probably mean nothing by it, you probably didn't even think about it when you said it - but the truth is, you probably should have thought about how that might affect Chinese people, before you said it. You can't have tolerance, without understanding what you are being tolerant off. Where do we draw the line, who draws the line. Do white people get to decide what is and isn't racist? Or do we need to pay attention to what people find offensive in order to structure a more tolerant society. Whilst I like your idea of a uptopia in which everyone is reasonable, how reasonable is it to black up, knowing that people are offended by blacking up? Tolerance works both ways. Its probably a good idea to steer clear of the kind of thing that sets the cat among the pidgeons. Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face. I agree that offending is not desirable but as a society we need to evolve to a point where offense is more difficult to achieve rather than easier. My logic is simple. If we are all increasingly sensitised by agendas or by preconceptions of what is offensive, then the ultimate result is that people will become increasingly more easy to offend. It is a self defeating attitude. Therefore, the only way forward is for all of us to develop a thicker skin. There is also a racial bias as to what as offensive for historical reasons. If we continue to apply those rules, then we perpetuate inequality within so called equality. This only creates resentment and helps prolong the very thing we are hoping to stop. A black man in white paint has to be equally offensive as the opposite or neither has to be offensive. We cannot live in the past forever as once again it is counter productive. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 Dec 2016 3.58pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Dec 16 3.51pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Its beyond a bit of wiggle room, to turn up somewhere blacked up, and expect everyone to be fine with it. If they are, all well and good, no foul no harm.

Which probably includes Klan robes, Nazi Uniforms, Black Face and Yellow Face.

I agree that offending is not desirable but as a society we need to evolve to a point where offense is more difficult to achieve rather than easier. My logic is simple. If we are all increasingly sensitised by agendas or by preconceptions of what is offensive, then the ultimate result is that people will become increasingly more easy to offend. It is a self defeating attitude.
Therefore, the only way forward is for all of us to develop a thicker skin.

There is also a racial bias as to what as offensive for historical reasons. If we continue to apply those rules, then we perpetuate inequality within so called equality. This only creates resentment and helps prolong the very thing we are hoping to stop. A black man in white paint has to be equally offensive as the opposite or neither has to be offensive. We cannot live in the past forever as once again it is counter productive.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (23 Dec 2016 3.58pm)

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Kermit8 Hevon 23 Dec 16 4.09pm
Or we could, as individuals, think for ourselves and decide if we have over-stepped the mark; whether an apology is in order; admit if we have a been a cvnt; defend our position if we haven't; empathise if needed; call it out if someone is being over-sensitive and call it out if someone is being a tw@t; pander if appropriate and don't pander if not. In short, try not to be too influenced or told what to feel or how you should act by the media, politicians, lawyers or others who have self-interest in playing that game. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 23 Dec 16 4.09pm

Or we could, as individuals, think for ourselves and decide if we have over-stepped the mark; whether an apology is in order; admit if we have a been a cvnt; defend our position if we haven't; empathise if needed; call it out if someone is being over-sensitive and call it out if someone is being a tw@t; pander if appropriate and don't pander if not.

In short, try not to be too influenced or told what to feel or how you should act by the media, politicians, lawyers or others who have self-interest in playing that game.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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simonmdt x 23 Dec 16 4.37pm
Blackface is offensive because of the cultural and historical context. The same reasons that ****** and sambo are offensive. Taken out of context and simply seen as a white man dressing up as a black sunglasses salesman and debating that is to miss the point entirely
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simonmdt

x 23 Dec 16 4.37pm

Blackface is offensive because of the cultural and historical context. The same reasons that ****** and sambo are offensive.

Taken out of context and simply seen as a white man dressing up as a black sunglasses salesman and debating that is to miss the point entirely

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Kodg LDN 23 Dec 16 4.43pm
Yes, and this might help you to understand why [Link]
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Kodg

LDN 23 Dec 16 4.43pm

Yes, and this might help you to understand why
[Link]

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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 23 Dec 16 5.16pm
Originally posted by Kodg Yes, and this might help you to understand why [Link] No, not really. Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham
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Cucking Funt

Clapham on the Back 23 Dec 16 5.16pm

Originally posted by Kodg

Yes, and this might help you to understand why
[Link]

No, not really.

Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

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Hrolf The Ganger 23 Dec 16 5.55pm
Originally posted by simonmdt Blackface is offensive because of the cultural and historical context. The same reasons that ****** and sambo are offensive. Taken out of context and simply seen as a white man dressing up as a black sunglasses salesman and debating that is to miss the point entirely And how long are we going to perpetuate this? Should I be offended by the sight of someone dressed as a Roman or a Norman or the Pope? They were all really mean to my ancestors.
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Hrolf The Ganger

23 Dec 16 5.55pm

Originally posted by simonmdt

Blackface is offensive because of the cultural and historical context. The same reasons that ****** and sambo are offensive.

Taken out of context and simply seen as a white man dressing up as a black sunglasses salesman and debating that is to miss the point entirely

And how long are we going to perpetuate this?

Should I be offended by the sight of someone dressed as a Roman or a Norman or the Pope? They were all really mean to my ancestors.

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Kodg LDN 23 Dec 16 7.08pm
Originally posted by Cucking Funt No, not really. Of course it does require you to actually click on the link and then read it.
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Kodg

LDN 23 Dec 16 7.08pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

No, not really.

Of course it does require you to actually click on the link and then read it.

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