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Forest Hill stabbing

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 09 Jan 17 4.59pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I thought it was money borrowed from America after the War.

We have seen a fairer society over the last couple of centuries. I would agree that the distribution of wealth could improve but whey would people ever be happy? It is in the nature of people to never be content.

Nothing to do with the foresight of the Labour government at the time. Did the money come with a 'you must set up the welfare state and a free at point of service Nhs' caveat?

Also, I may be mistaken, but hasn't the NHS been paid for (in the main) by NI contributions?

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 09 Jan 17 4.59pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Actually, no, because the onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt, that the crime was 'racially' motivated - and that the crime existed. An assault charged as a hate crime, must first meet the legal requirement of being an assault, and then prove that the assault occurred because of the perpetrators specific hatred and prejudice.

Where as thought crime has no victim, nor necessity to prove or fair trial. If hate crimes were thought crimes, then they would not require proof of a crime being committed, only that the individual may be exhibiting unacceptable thoughts deemed so by the state. In deed the only crime that Winston Smith commits is one that the state has in effect entrapped him into making.

The point of Thought Crime, isn't about the crime or the victim, but the power of the state to do as it wishes with impunity. Which is utterly a contradiction to protecting citizens of society from being targeted by crimes based entirely on superficial factors of their being (ie their ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation).

Thought crime, is the perpetration of hate, not the protection of society from people who act out their hate.

My point is concerning the 'racially aggravated' tag that is added to many crimes these days that adds to the severity of the sentencing. If as you assert, there is no such thing as 'race', then the perpetrator, if he was acting on some 'racist' level, he or she must be deluded as there would be no racial victim available to be racist to. Surely someone suffering from such a delusion should receive a lesser sentence, rather than greater?

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 09 Jan 17 5.01pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

What's this we business. The white man, and the black man, don't own or improve music, musicians do, irrespective of their race or gender. Rick Rubin is as important to hip hop as Chuck Berry is to rock. The whole point about music really is that its an art that is a cultural melting pot.

The only real race issues around music tend to have been about exploitation of black artists, and even then most of the labels of their day were progressive by societies general standards.


Absolutely no doubt that black musicians were overlooked, plagiarized or exploited in the past. Plenty of white musicians have been exploited as well it has to be said. That was beside my point.

My statement was really about the shift in musical trends created by the influence of immigrants.

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 09 Jan 17 5.04pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I love a good 1984 reference.
Sadly, it seems that some see it as a manual.

I take it you mean Theresa May and her 'snoopers charter'

I love the fact you see the book as a handbook when actually it highlights how disastrous totalitarian regimes are, so is more a warning than a handbook.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 17 5.05pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

What do you mean by 'fairer'? Would you say that Soviet Russia was 'fairer' economically than Tsarist Russia, and if so, was the millions of deaths and the general awfulness of Soviet life worth it?

Well in many ways it was, because following the revolution everyone was poor and f**ked. Even the leaders of the revolution were economically f**ked and dependent on donations from abroad. Of course they soon replaced wealth with party status.

Of course the soviet also improved education, health care and prospects for people who never benefitted under the Tsar - The tyranny of the massive purges and murders however doesn't justify that, but nor does it write off the fact that the soviet achieved some changes that were more or less positive social changes.

But certainly it doesn't absolve the crimes of the state against the people, which arguably far exceeded those of the Tsar. But of course had the Tsar reacted to the excesses of the Aristocracy, and the desires of the population, the revolution would never have happened either.

Nations that don't 'respond to the problems within the population' pay a price. Brexit and Trump clearly highlight that. When people feel powerless and no one and are ostracised, they tend to bring down changes - The failure of the UK to deal with the economic crunch and the exploitation of cheap migrant labour lead to Brexit.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Sedlescombe's Profile Sedlescombe Flag Sedlescombe 09 Jan 17 5.07pm Send a Private Message to Sedlescombe Add Sedlescombe as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

I take it you mean Theresa May and her 'snoopers charter'

I love the fact you see the book as a handbook when actually it highlights how disastrous totalitarian regimes are, so is more a warning than a handbook.

Animal Farm was better

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 17 5.08pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


Absolutely no doubt that black musicians were overlooked, plagiarized or exploited in the past. Plenty of white musicians have been exploited as well it has to be said. That was beside my point.

My statement was really about the shift in musical trends created by the influence of immigrants.

That's certainly true about white musicians being exploited. The problem really is exploitation, rather than race. Do away with the idea of exploiting people, and instead offer them fair compensation, but that's 'commie' thinking...

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 09 Jan 17 5.10pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Animal Farm was better

Down and out in Paris and London was even betterer

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 09 Jan 17 5.15pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

Nothing to do with the foresight of the Labour government at the time. Did the money come with a 'you must set up the welfare state and a free at point of service Nhs' caveat?

Also, I may be mistaken, but hasn't the NHS been paid for (in the main) by NI contributions?


Nothing to do with trying to win the post war election then?

Of course the NHS has been funded by taxation but loans from America after the war made it possible.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 09 Jan 17 5.18pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

That's certainly true about white musicians being exploited. The problem really is exploitation, rather than race. Do away with the idea of exploiting people, and instead offer them fair compensation, but that's 'commie' thinking...

Not really. Musicians have been used like dairy cows by record companies for years. It's surprising how many major artists were actually skint at the height of their popularity.

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 09 Jan 17 5.18pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

My point is concerning the 'racially aggravated' tag that is added to many crimes these days that adds to the severity of the sentencing. If as you assert, there is no such thing as 'race', then the perpetrator, if he was acting on some 'racist' level, he or she must be deluded as there would be no racial victim available to be racist to. Surely someone suffering from such a delusion should receive a lesser sentence, rather than greater?

And rightly so, because the incident is unprovoked, and the likelihood of rehabilitation much harder. If you get in a fight with someone over an argument its very different than someone who attacks someone because they hate black or white people. The provision of the rehabilition of offenders act is also to protect society from criminals, as well as rehabilitate them

Delusion is not a defence in law, if the attack shows premeditation and the individual knew what they were doing, and reasonably responsible for their actions. People who are delusional, such as a schizophrenic, don't get lighter sentences - if they are proven mentally ill, they tend to get indefinite sections until such time as their disease is under control. That could be a year or so, or it could be the rest of their life.

There are people in Broadmoor who have been there for decades, despite committing crimes that would likely have seen them spending only 3.5 to 7 years in prison - because their disorders do not respond well enough to treatment to warrant their release.

Oddly successive governments keep trying to make it harder for secure units to retain these people, who really shouldn't be allowed out in to society, by trying to force psych units spaces down, and limit them to disorders that 'respond well to treatment'.

But in no way is being in a psychiatric unit 'a soft time'.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 09 Jan 17 5.21pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by nickgusset

I take it you mean Theresa May and her 'snoopers charter'

I love the fact you see the book as a handbook when actually it highlights how disastrous totalitarian regimes are, so is more a warning than a handbook.

Big Brother actually derived from socialism and that is highly plausible and insightful when you look at liberal/socialist attitudes.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (09 Jan 2017 5.21pm)

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (09 Jan 2017 5.22pm)

 

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