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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jul 16 11.35am | |
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Originally posted by Johnny Eagles
I don't want to defend Philip Green, but the way the politico-media class has lined up to bash him makes me suspect that there is a bit of scapegoating going on here. The politicians spewing out humbug on an industrial scale particulary sticks in the craw. Your average ex-SpAd, safe-seat careerist MP has probably never been in BHS, and almost certainly hasn't given a second thought to its employees until the day before yesterday. But now it's all about the poor "loyal, hardworking" employees and evil Philip Green is to blame. News flash: if you want to boast about an "open, global, trading economy" you can't also claim to want to protect employees. You can't have it both ways. Pouring out a load of humbug to avoid a short-term media barrage is a bit rich, too little and too late. I agree PG has been sacrificed somewhat here and quite possibly to distract attention away from questionable company practice. Where I think this case does tip over into unpalatable is that it's a) humble pensions that have been destroyed and b) the sum of money PG has made from taking advantage of them and co, and c) add that to the huge profits from TopShop paid to PG's wife registered in Monaco. In one way or another PG and wife owe around £1 billion to individuals in Britain or HM Revenue and Customs. Being flash and brash has no doubt meant that some have pounced on this to demolish his reputation.
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Johnny Eagles berlin 26 Jul 16 11.37am | |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Your post doesn't really make a lot of sense and it reads more like a rant without anything concrete to back it up. I certainly have an opinion on Phillip Green's behaviour and I don't shop in BHS either and I have certainly never given their staff any more thought than I give employees of other companies in general. In what way doesn't it make sense? I don't want to defend Philip Green. I've only vaguely followed the travails of BHS but to blame its downfall entirely I find a bit simplistic. A significant factor was that people stopped wanting to shop there. Retail is a tough old business even if you're good at it, which BHS clearly wasn't. Management was poor. Green and Chappell stitched the company up. They put money in their own pockets instead of investing it. But even if they had invested millions, there's no guarantee these people would still have jobs. Like Woolworth's or HMV, everyone was shocked at the loss of a "national institution", and there was a lot of humbug too, but nobody misses Woolworth's, do they? It had its time. The pensions thing is very unedifying. But there's a difference between say, Robert Maxwell, which was outright fraud and theft, and stripping a company whose earnings pay for a pension fund which, while morally highly dubious, is nevertheless legal. Philip Green is partly responsible. He's a ruthless money-grabber and I believe his behaviour has been morally highly questionable. But to turn him into a bogeyman is a bit much. Especially when it's POLITICIANS who are doing it! You can't go round knighting people for being ruthless money-grabbers when it suits you and then bashing them for being exactly the same when it turns out ruthless money-grabbing has its darker side!
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Johnny Eagles berlin 26 Jul 16 11.42am | |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Quite, but it may give the lawmakers an indication of what parts of corporate law need to be tightened up. I see that "The unacceptable face of capitalism" is being trotted out again and it's quite a few years since I heard that expression which I believe was coined by Prime Minister Edward Heath about another corporate rapist Tiny Rowland You can write as many laws as you like, but there is no legislating for morality. Britain has chosen a path where free-wheeling, lightly-regulated money-making with little or no regard for the moral consequences has become a national cult. Cf. The banking crisis, privatising the railways, closing down the coalmines. Politicians - of all parties, the Tories especially, but certainly Blair, Brown and their acolytes - have turned this into a national creed. So to turn round now and go, "ooh, these evil capitalists, exploiting poor loyal hardworking employees" is a bit rich! To paraphrase Boris Johnson, you can't be pro-cake (selling everything that isn't nailed down to the Chinese) and pro-eating it (claiming to stand up for oppressed workers.) p.s. Excellent 1970s political reference, by the way. Just looked up Tiny Rowland, hadn't heard of him before! Edited by Johnny Eagles (26 Jul 2016 11.54am)
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Rudi Hedman Caterham 26 Jul 16 11.44am | |
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If you ever get to see the footage of PG, probably soon after acquiring BHS and holding up a blouse type garment and presenting positive PR to the tv interviewer, his body language shows his true feelings towards the merchandise, brand etc.
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Lyons550 Shirley 26 Jul 16 1.48pm | |
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If you come across as an obnoxious cnut it doesn't matter if you didn't transcend any laws You deserve to get battered...especially in his case. Its often not what you do or say...but the way you go about it that matters.
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Midlands Eagle 26 Jul 16 2.19pm | |
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Originally posted by Johnny Eagles
p.s. Excellent 1970s political reference, by the way. Just looked up Tiny Rowland, hadn't heard of him before! I'd forgotten how young some people are on this site
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Cucking Funt Clapham on the Back 26 Jul 16 4.04pm | |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
I'd forgotten how young some people are on this site Slater Walker must be worthy of mention, too. Asset-strippers extraordinaire. And Walker even became a government minister.
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Stuk Top half 26 Jul 16 8.35pm | |
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Originally posted by Johnny Eagles
You can write as many laws as you like, but there is no legislating for morality. Cf. The banking crisis, privatising the railways, closing down the coalmines. Politicians - of all parties, the Tories especially, but certainly Blair, Brown and their acolytes - have turned this into a national creed. So to turn round now and go, "ooh, these evil capitalists, exploiting poor loyal hardworking employees" is a bit rich! To paraphrase Boris Johnson, you can't be pro-cake (selling everything that isn't nailed down to the Chinese) and pro-eating it (claiming to stand up for oppressed workers.) p.s. Excellent 1970s political reference, by the way. Just looked up Tiny Rowland, hadn't heard of him before! Edited by Johnny Eagles (26 Jul 2016 11.54am) Exactly. I could very easily borrow large sums of money (claiming it's) for my business, pay it to myself and then piss the whole lot of it and simply fold the company. HMRC wouldn't care a jot so long as I paid them their dues on the money coming to me.
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pefwin Where you have to have an English ... 27 Jul 16 7.05am | |
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Originally posted by leifandersonshair
The Trustees were apparently unhappy with the sale to Chappell anyway due to the position it put the Scheme in. Now it's up to Green how much value he puts on that Knighthood. If he doesn't pay up, the PPF ie the taxpayer (as the Levy I think covers around 20% of liabilities) The amount of money required to bring the benefits up to PPF levels would be circa £350 mn.
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Midlands Eagle 27 Jul 16 7.09am | |
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Originally posted by Stuk
I could very easily borrow large sums of money (claiming it's) for my business, pay it to myself and then piss the whole lot of it and simply fold the company. HMRC wouldn't care a jot so long as I paid them their dues on the money coming to me. Bankers would be unlikely to lend "you" the money unless it was secured and even if it were your company that borrowed the money it would likely be secured too.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Jul 16 11.48am | |
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Originally posted by Stuk
Exactly. I could very easily borrow large sums of money (claiming it's) for my business, pay it to myself and then piss the whole lot of it and simply fold the company. HMRC wouldn't care a jot so long as I paid them their dues on the money coming to me. I think that's called embezzlement or fraud. HMRC might not care, provided you pay your income tax, NI, VAT, dividend tax and corporation tax etc, but a different legal body might be paying you a visit Interestingly, as a side note, HMRC are surprisingly vigorous in this area, as my downstairs neighbour found out last week (he's now on bail).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 27 Jul 16 11.56am | |
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Whilst it all remains a filthy sordid abuse of the law, I don't think anything he did was illegal (some of it probably should be and its a good example of why capitalism requires serious regulation and restraints - same as any system). Of course the real problem of BHS, is that of most department stores, the internet and competition that can deal in better prices and wider ranges. John Lewis, Debenhams and M+S have avoided this to some degree, by understanding status and brand marketing in the consumer age, and effectively creating a more 'empowering status brand' approach (at least the illusion of status and quality to their goods) Where as Woolworths and BHS et al effectively couldn't compete with competition from the likes of Poundland, Primark, Footlocker etc either in price, variety or status - Which have become ubiquitous.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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