Marauding African migrants?

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Aug 15 9.33am
Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 4.59pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 11.03am Quote Hoof Hearted at 11 Aug 2015 10.54am Quote DanH at 11 Aug 2015 10.45am You lot don't know how fortunate you were to be born in an affluent, stable, peaceful western country do you? I also know how fortunate people are to live in Monaco, Cannes, and Nice, Dan, but I don't turn up on their doorstep demanding a free slice of their lavish lifestyle not having contributed or worked towards it though? Not many turn up here for a free slice of live style either. Our Asylum laws require that asylum cases are not allowed to work in the UK until they are granted the right of citizenship or temporary residence. EU migrants need to work to be entitled to benefits (3-5 years), or be granted citizenship. Funny enough, as a legal migrant, on an extended visa, you need to be able to demonstrate you can 'support yourself' for the period of your stay, or until you can find work (on a working visa). My wife, when she migrated to work in the UK needed to have 10k in the bank account (as well as proof she did not have HIV, TB, her educational standard and history of employment as a teacher). She worked as a TA in the UK until she qualified as a UK teacher (which she paid for). And that's despite having a degree in Maths, English, Drama and post graduate status in education, and ten years teaching experience. Then after five years she paid for, and took her citizenship exam (and passed). It isn't as easy as people think to get in legally. ...so therefore enter illegally? This type of logic utterly confounds me. Well that would be the logical next step, if getting in legally is very difficult and requires a lot of difficult proofs to display, is that people will pay human traffickers to get them into the country (where you can pay off your debt by working). I'm not saying its right or should be tolerated, but that is what happens. I also suspect that traffickers also 'sell their services' under different guises in various countries - Sex traffickers are notorious for offering work in European countries, and then selling the victims on into sexual slavery (A similar situation occurs with the illegal labour market). I'd guess that most asylum applicants don't have access to passports and visas and documentation to get out of the country (for obvious reasons), or have too much time to plan their escape (not in all cases, but certainly many), but they may have time to grab some belongings they can sell (Jewellary maybe) or sell off their belongings (or borrow money from family members and friends). Again its more about what happens than moral judgment. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Aug 15 9.33am

Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 4.59pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 11.03am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 11 Aug 2015 10.54am

Quote DanH at 11 Aug 2015 10.45am

You lot don't know how fortunate you were to be born in an affluent, stable, peaceful western country do you?

I also know how fortunate people are to live in Monaco, Cannes, and Nice, Dan, but I don't turn up on their doorstep demanding a free slice of their lavish lifestyle not having contributed or worked towards it though?

Not many turn up here for a free slice of live style either. Our Asylum laws require that asylum cases are not allowed to work in the UK until they are granted the right of citizenship or temporary residence.

EU migrants need to work to be entitled to benefits (3-5 years), or be granted citizenship.

Funny enough, as a legal migrant, on an extended visa, you need to be able to demonstrate you can 'support yourself' for the period of your stay, or until you can find work (on a working visa). My wife, when she migrated to work in the UK needed to have 10k in the bank account (as well as proof she did not have HIV, TB, her educational standard and history of employment as a teacher). She worked as a TA in the UK until she qualified as a UK teacher (which she paid for). And that's despite having a degree in Maths, English, Drama and post graduate status in education, and ten years teaching experience.

Then after five years she paid for, and took her citizenship exam (and passed).

It isn't as easy as people think to get in legally.

...so therefore enter illegally? This type of logic utterly confounds me.

Well that would be the logical next step, if getting in legally is very difficult and requires a lot of difficult proofs to display, is that people will pay human traffickers to get them into the country (where you can pay off your debt by working). I'm not saying its right or should be tolerated, but that is what happens.

I also suspect that traffickers also 'sell their services' under different guises in various countries - Sex traffickers are notorious for offering work in European countries, and then selling the victims on into sexual slavery (A similar situation occurs with the illegal labour market).

I'd guess that most asylum applicants don't have access to passports and visas and documentation to get out of the country (for obvious reasons), or have too much time to plan their escape (not in all cases, but certainly many), but they may have time to grab some belongings they can sell (Jewellary maybe) or sell off their belongings (or borrow money from family members and friends).

Again its more about what happens than moral judgment.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Aug 15 9.41am
Quote Tom-the-eagle at 11 Aug 2015 5.19pm Quote ghosteagle at 11 Aug 2015 4.06pm Quote fed up eagle at 11 Aug 2015 3.58pm I keep hearing how the French benefits system is sooooooooo much more generous than ours. I have to say this is a new one on me, I even remember the mayor of Calais blaming the Calais migrant crisis on our ridiculously generous benefits system. Of course I believe there is something in the argument that they have family already here which would make them want to come here, but let's face it, our benefits system is ridiculously generous. I've even seen migrants interviewed on the news and when asked why they want to come here the answer was 'britain...she give me house...she give me money. We come Britain for our house and money, thanks!'. I didn't make that up, I actually heard it said on the news. Also the fact that they've travelled across umpteen borders and hundreds and thousands of miles to get here is a dead give away as to why they want to come here. Like I say, I don't blame them for wanting to benefit from such generosity but this can't be allowed to keep happening. The politicians also need to take some of the blame here. Either way this must stop now. There are plenty of countries in Europe who can take them. We're full and simply can't sustain this mass influx of people, and we must stop giving money away like this. We have people in this country who are British who need our help. Do you have numbers or statistics to back up the claim that we are 'full'? The French benefit system is more generous than here, which gives proof to the lie that migrants come here for the money. The main factors that draw people to england are the language, cultural ties and that they have family and friends here. It should also be noted that only a miniscule percentage of refugees make their way to england and that other european countries are already taking far more in than this country. Edited by ghosteagle (11 Aug 2015 4.08pm) So when the residents of the Calais migrant camp are interviewed about why they want to come to England and they repeatedly give economic reasons, what you are saying is that they are all actually lying and are in fact risking their lives to come here to visit their friends instead? The UK may or may not provide the most generous potential benefits. I honestly don’t know as I have never looked in any depth to see that other countries offer. What I can say with absolute certainty is that the perception is that Britain is the most generous country and that above all else is why these people don’t wish to stay in France or any other country they have passed through. Actually I do suspect most people in those camps probably aren't refugees, and are debris left over from people who are illegal, probably looking to get in under the wire, work illegally etc. I suspect many are looking to get out of France, as they're known there. Some might very well be genuine, but I'd imagine most aren't. That doesn't mean we should assume the worst about them, or treat them like feral animals (much in the way the French authorities have). The problem is that they haven't been properly dealt with, left to their own devices and that problem has escalated and escalated. That said, the perception of people who are British, about things that are British, is usually rather bias. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Aug 15 9.41am

Quote Tom-the-eagle at 11 Aug 2015 5.19pm

Quote ghosteagle at 11 Aug 2015 4.06pm

Quote fed up eagle at 11 Aug 2015 3.58pm

I keep hearing how the French benefits system is sooooooooo much more generous than ours. I have to say this is a new one on me, I even remember the mayor of Calais blaming the Calais migrant crisis on our ridiculously generous benefits system.
Of course I believe there is something in the argument that they have family already here which would make them want to come here, but let's face it, our benefits system is ridiculously generous. I've even seen migrants interviewed on the news and when asked why they want to come here the answer was 'britain...she give me house...she give me money. We come Britain for our house and money, thanks!'. I didn't make that up, I actually heard it said on the news. Also the fact that they've travelled across umpteen borders and hundreds and thousands of miles to get here is a dead give away as to why they want to come here. Like I say, I don't blame them for wanting to benefit from such generosity but this can't be allowed to keep happening. The politicians also need to take some of the blame here.

Either way this must stop now. There are plenty of countries in Europe who can take them. We're full and simply can't sustain this mass influx of people, and we must stop giving money away like this. We have people in this country who are British who need our help.

Do you have numbers or statistics to back up the claim that we are 'full'?
The French benefit system is more generous than here, which gives proof to the lie that migrants come here for the money. The main factors that draw people to england are the language, cultural ties and that they have family and friends here.

It should also be noted that only a miniscule percentage of refugees make their way to england and that other european countries are already taking far more in than this country.

Edited by ghosteagle (11 Aug 2015 4.08pm)

So when the residents of the Calais migrant camp are interviewed about why they want to come to England and they repeatedly give economic reasons, what you are saying is that they are all actually lying and are in fact risking their lives to come here to visit their friends instead?
The UK may or may not provide the most generous potential benefits. I honestly don’t know as I have never looked in any depth to see that other countries offer. What I can say with absolute certainty is that the perception is that Britain is the most generous country and that above all else is why these people don’t wish to stay in France or any other country they have passed through.

Actually I do suspect most people in those camps probably aren't refugees, and are debris left over from people who are illegal, probably looking to get in under the wire, work illegally etc. I suspect many are looking to get out of France, as they're known there. Some might very well be genuine, but I'd imagine most aren't. That doesn't mean we should assume the worst about them, or treat them like feral animals (much in the way the French authorities have). The problem is that they haven't been properly dealt with, left to their own devices and that problem has escalated and escalated.

That said, the perception of people who are British, about things that are British, is usually rather bias.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Aug 15 9.49am
Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 5.05pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 3.18pm Also, how much in welfare is a migrant going to be getting, isn't the top end 25k now (less than 1% of benefits claim's were 25k or more). Given that requires a full raft of benefits including a wife/husband and several kids, once you take housing benefit out of the equation. We should offer a deal. Anyone who does 10 years in the military or civil work is automatically granted citizenship for them, their partner and their children. These guys are lobbing bricks at passing lorries, threatening to slit the throats of the drivers, damaging property, attacking police, attempting to illegally enter a country without authorisation.... ....so let them join our army? Are you absolutely fcuking insane? Sound like they might have some suitable candidates. People who are willing to defend what little they have, and maybe have a talent for subversion and infiltration, with some discipline and training, could do quite well in the armed forces (not to forget probably having various language skills). They're not raving psychopaths, they're desperate people, who when in the UK (if they're not asylum cases) will be working for a pittance, living in poor conditions. Quite a few of the people I know who went into the army it was the saving of them from a life likely in and out of prison. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 12 Aug 15 9.49am

Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 5.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 3.18pm

Also, how much in welfare is a migrant going to be getting, isn't the top end 25k now (less than 1% of benefits claim's were 25k or more). Given that requires a full raft of benefits including a wife/husband and several kids, once you take housing benefit out of the equation.

We should offer a deal. Anyone who does 10 years in the military or civil work is automatically granted citizenship for them, their partner and their children.

These guys are lobbing bricks at passing lorries, threatening to slit the throats of the drivers, damaging property, attacking police, attempting to illegally enter a country without authorisation....

....so let them join our army? Are you absolutely fcuking insane?

Sound like they might have some suitable candidates. People who are willing to defend what little they have, and maybe have a talent for subversion and infiltration, with some discipline and training, could do quite well in the armed forces (not to forget probably having various language skills).

They're not raving psychopaths, they're desperate people, who when in the UK (if they're not asylum cases) will be working for a pittance, living in poor conditions.

Quite a few of the people I know who went into the army it was the saving of them from a life likely in and out of prison.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 12 Aug 15 10.17am
Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Aug 2015 9.49am Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 5.05pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 3.18pm Also, how much in welfare is a migrant going to be getting, isn't the top end 25k now (less than 1% of benefits claim's were 25k or more). Given that requires a full raft of benefits including a wife/husband and several kids, once you take housing benefit out of the equation. We should offer a deal. Anyone who does 10 years in the military or civil work is automatically granted citizenship for them, their partner and their children. These guys are lobbing bricks at passing lorries, threatening to slit the throats of the drivers, damaging property, attacking police, attempting to illegally enter a country without authorisation.... ....so let them join our army? Are you absolutely fcuking insane? Sound like they might have some suitable candidates. People who are willing to defend what little they have, and maybe have a talent for subversion and infiltration, with some discipline and training, could do quite well in the armed forces (not to forget probably having various language skills). They're not raving psychopaths, they're desperate people, who when in the UK (if they're not asylum cases) will be working for a pittance, living in poor conditions. Quite a few of the people I know who went into the army it was the saving of them from a life likely in and out of prison. That my learned friend is the biggest load of bollicks I have ever had the misfortune to read. Let me put you straight. Maybe once upon a time if you'd f*ed up in life the Army may have been your last resort at eking out a fairly decent existence. That is not the case now, and hasn’t been for over a decade. Due to recent terror threats, the back ground checks alone on individuals are very in depth, plus every single soldier in the British army has to be at Grade C or above in Maths and English. If you want a trade you need to have in most cases 5 GCSE’s Grade D or above with a C in maths English and a Science. Not to mention the absolutely NO DRUGS rule, the youngsters who join the army these days are probably the only kids in Britain that don’t smoke or haven’t smoked weed, or shove Charlie up their nose like its the last gram on Earth, ( a quick in the bogs in the Holmesdale will back up that claim) The level of technology involved in weapon systems these days means they can’t be operated by any idiot who fancies a tear up, or can lob a brick as you claim. Even the vehicles are crammed full of tech that would give most civvies a headache. And that’s just the bullet catchers (infantry) As for subversion and infiltration I think you need to stop watching Spooks. As for prison, the Army operates strictly within the rules of the rehabilitation of offenders act, as a general rule of thumb any time spent in prison is normally a bar to service before you even fill out the application form. You also have to hold a British passport, if you hold a common wealth one, you have to have a visa that enables you to work, and have at least 6 months left on it. It really grips my s* that people think any old idiot can get in the Army, it simply isn’t the case, I worked in Army recruiting for two years, and the drop out rate was phenomenal, I sh1t you not probably about 1 out of every 15 that came through the door passed all the tests and made it through basic to become qualified soldiers, that’s before they even start learning their chosen trade at Phase two, which dependant on trade could be anything from 14 Weeks to 3 Years !!! I honestly resent your assumption that an illegal immigrant would make a good soldier, it's offensive to those that have, or do serve and the sacrifices they make. Frankly I expected better. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"
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dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 12 Aug 15 10.17am

Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Aug 2015 9.49am

Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 5.05pm

Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 3.18pm

We should offer a deal. Anyone who does 10 years in the military or civil work is automatically granted citizenship for them, their partner and their children.

....so let them join our army? Are you absolutely fcuking insane?

They're not raving psychopaths, they're desperate people, who when in the UK (if they're not asylum cases) will be working for a pittance, living in poor conditions.

Quite a few of the people I know who went into the army it was the saving of them from a life likely in and out of prison.

That my learned friend is the biggest load of bollicks I have ever had the misfortune to read. Let me put you straight.

Maybe once upon a time if you'd f***ed up in life the Army may have been your last resort at eking out a fairly decent existence.

That is not the case now, and hasn’t been for over a decade. Due to recent terror threats, the back ground checks alone on individuals are very in depth, plus every single soldier in the British army has to be at Grade C or above in Maths and English. If you want a trade you need to have in most cases 5 GCSE’s Grade D or above with a C in maths English and a Science. Not to mention the absolutely NO DRUGS rule, the youngsters who join the army these days are probably the only kids in Britain that don’t smoke or haven’t smoked weed, or shove Charlie up their nose like its the last gram on Earth, ( a quick in the bogs in the Holmesdale will back up that claim)

The level of technology involved in weapon systems these days means they can’t be operated by any idiot who fancies a tear up, or can lob a brick as you claim. Even the vehicles are crammed full of tech that would give most civvies a headache. And that’s just the bullet catchers (infantry)

As for subversion and infiltration I think you need to stop watching Spooks.

As for prison, the Army operates strictly within the rules of the rehabilitation of offenders act, as a general rule of thumb any time spent in prison is normally a bar to service before you even fill out the application form.

You also have to hold a British passport, if you hold a common wealth one, you have to have a visa that enables you to work, and have at least 6 months left on it.

It really grips my s*** that people think any old idiot can get in the Army, it simply isn’t the case, I worked in Army recruiting for two years, and the drop out rate was phenomenal, I sh1t you not probably about 1 out of every 15 that came through the door passed all the tests and made it through basic to become qualified soldiers, that’s before they even start learning their chosen trade at Phase two, which dependant on trade could be anything from 14 Weeks to 3 Years !!!

I honestly resent your assumption that an illegal immigrant would make a good soldier, it's offensive to those that have, or do serve and the sacrifices they make.

Frankly I expected better.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

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Hoof Hearted 12 Aug 15 11.00am
So......... we're still waiting for a response from ghosteagle to Tom's question then?
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Hoof Hearted 12 Aug 15 11.00am

So......... we're still waiting for a response from ghosteagle to Tom's question then?

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fed up eagle Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 12 Aug 15 11.07am
Quote dannyh at 12 Aug 2015 10.17am Quote jamiemartin721 at 12 Aug 2015 9.49am Quote davenotamonkey at 11 Aug 2015 5.05pm Quote jamiemartin721 at 11 Aug 2015 3.18pm Also, how much in welfare is a migrant going to be getting, isn't the top end 25k now (less than 1% of benefits claim's were 25k or more). Given that requires a full raft of benefits including a wife/husband and several kids, once you take housing benefit out of the equation. We should offer a deal. Anyone who does 10 years in the military or civil work is automatically granted citizenship for them, their partner and their children. These guys are lobbing bricks at passing lorries, threatening to slit the throats of the drivers, damaging property, attacking police, attempting to illegally enter a country without authorisation.... ....so let them join our army? Are you absolutely fcuking insane? Sound like they might have some suitable candidates. People who are willing to defend what little they have, and maybe have a talent for subversion and infiltration, with some discipline and training, could do quite well in the armed forces (not to forget probably having various language skills). They're not raving psychopaths, they're desperate people, who when in the UK (if they're not asylum cases) will be working for a pittance, living in poor conditions. Quite a few of the people I know who went into the army it was the saving of them from a life likely in and out of prison. That my learned friend is the biggest load of bollicks I have ever had the misfortune to read. Let me put you straight. Maybe once upon a time if you'd f*ed up in life the Army may have been your last resort at eking out a fairly decent existence. That is not the case now, and hasn’t been for over a decade. Due to recent terror threats, the back ground checks alone on individuals are very in depth, plus every single soldier in the British army has to be at Grade C or above in Maths and English. If you want a trade you need to have in most cases 5 GCSE’s Grade D or above with a C in maths English and a Science. Not to mention the absolutely NO DRUGS rule, the youngsters who join the army these days are probably the only kids in Britain that don’t smoke or haven’t smoked weed, or shove Charlie up their nose like its the last gram on Earth, ( a quick in the bogs in the Holmesdale will back up that claim) The level of technology involved in weapon systems these days means they can’t be operated by any idiot who fancies a tear up, or can lob a brick as you claim. Even the vehicles are crammed full of tech that would give most civvies a headache. And that’s just the bullet catchers (infantry) As for subversion and infiltration I think you need to stop watching Spooks. As for prison, the Army operates strictly within the rules of the rehabilitation of offenders act, as a general rule of thumb any time spent in prison is normally a bar to service before you even fill out the application form. You also have to hold a British passport, if you hold a common wealth one, you have to have a visa that enables you to work, and have at least 6 months left on it. It really grips my s* that people think any old idiot can get in the Army, it simply isn’t the case, I worked in Army recruiting for two years, and the drop out rate was phenomenal, I sh1t you not probably about 1 out of every 15 that came through the door passed all the tests and made it through basic to become qualified soldiers, that’s before they even start learning their chosen trade at Phase two, which dependant on trade could be anything from 14 Weeks to 3 Years !!! I honestly resent your assumption that an illegal immigrant would make a good soldier, it's offensive to those that have, or do serve and the sacrifices they make. Frankly I expected better. I fully agree. I was in the infantry and there's the mental toughness, the will to succeed, your application and discipline to keep fit and push your body beyond it's usual limits, weapons-taking them apart and maintaining them in the field-doing that with numb hands from the cold up on the Catterick moores, or having to cope with the extreme desert conditions. Then there's tactics, being alert and being a team player as your colleagues lives depend on that. People who assume just anyone can join the army have obviously never done it themselves.
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fed up eagle

Between Horley, Surrey and Preston... 12 Aug 15 11.07am

Quote dannyh at 12 Aug 2015 10.17am