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June 2 2024 1.39am

Religion trumps chronology in death

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 11.06am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Mr_Gristle

Absolutely. Doing cases in date order - unless the judicial system has an interest - surely is the only way? Bloody monotheists.

Why is that the only way? In my view once someone's dead they're dead and waiting a bit longer for a funeral/cremation isn't going to make much difference, but other people have beliefs that mean having a burial ASAP is important to them. I don't see why their requests were just being dismissed out of hand. I would think someone in this position should have some compassion and be a bit more flexible. She could easily take requests into consideration and ask relatives of those higher up the queue if they minded waiting a little longer so she could grant a request made for religious reasons. I personally wouldn't mind if it was a matter of a day or two, but equally if others did mind then she could reasonably say to the person making the request sorry but I tried.

The real issue is that she lacked compassion or any common sense.

 

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View topcat's Profile topcat Flag Holmesdale / Surbiton 03 May 18 11.10am Send a Private Message to topcat Add topcat as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Why is that the only way? In my view once someone's dead they're dead and waiting a bit longer for a funeral/cremation isn't going to make much difference, but other people have beliefs that mean having a burial ASAP is important to them. I don't see why their requests were just being dismissed out of hand. I would think someone in this position should have some compassion and be a bit more flexible. She could easily take requests into consideration and ask relatives of those higher up the queue if they minded waiting a little longer so she could grant a request made for religious reasons. I personally wouldn't mind if it was a matter of a day or two, but equally if others did mind then she could reasonably say to the person making the request sorry but I tried.

The real issue is that she lacked compassion or any common sense.

What if a large number of her clients are Jews or Muslims? Is she expected to keep putting them to the front of the queue whilst agnostics and other religions get put to the back? Ms Van Der Zyl just wants preferential treatment for Jews for no other reason that she is one.

 


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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 11.32am Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by topcat

What if a large number of her clients are Jews or Muslims? Is she expected to keep putting them to the front of the queue whilst agnostics and other religions get put to the back? Ms Van Der Zyl just wants preferential treatment for Jews for no other reason that she is one.

No. As I said there is no reason she couldn't have been a bit more sensible and compassionate. She acted like a complete jobsworth.

If she'd been kinder and at least showed she was doing her best to take people's wishes into consideration while reminding them that she has other cases to deal with then none of this would have happened. Most people will be reasonable and willing to wait a bit if they can see the person on the other side is at least listening to them and doing their best to accommodate reasonable requests.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 03 May 18 1.59pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Why is that the only way? In my view once someone's dead they're dead and waiting a bit longer for a funeral/cremation isn't going to make much difference, but other people have beliefs that mean having a burial ASAP is important to them. I don't see why their requests were just being dismissed out of hand. I would think someone in this position should have some compassion and be a bit more flexible. She could easily take requests into consideration and ask relatives of those higher up the queue if they minded waiting a little longer so she could grant a request made for religious reasons. I personally wouldn't mind if it was a matter of a day or two, but equally if others did mind then she could reasonably say to the person making the request sorry but I tried.

The real issue is that she lacked compassion or any common sense.

Insert the word "fair", between "only" and "way" in your opening question.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 03 May 18 2.00pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Originally posted by topcat

What if a large number of her clients are Jews or Muslims? Is she expected to keep putting them to the front of the queue whilst agnostics and other religions get put to the back? Ms Van Der Zyl just wants preferential treatment for Jews for no other reason that she is one.

Or start to decompose?

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 03 May 18 2.10pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

No. As I said there is no reason she couldn't have been a bit more sensible and compassionate. She acted like a complete jobsworth.

If she'd been kinder and at least showed she was doing her best to take people's wishes into consideration while reminding them that she has other cases to deal with then none of this would have happened. Most people will be reasonable and willing to wait a bit if they can see the person on the other side is at least listening to them and doing their best to accommodate reasonable requests.

I'm sure they'd all appreciate it if she decided to tell them how to do their jobs and in what order.

Religion shouldn't be taken into consideration for giving anyone preferential treatment. It's the very opposite of equality.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View npn's Profile npn Flag Crowborough 03 May 18 3.23pm Send a Private Message to npn Add npn as a friend

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

No. As I said there is no reason she couldn't have been a bit more sensible and compassionate. She acted like a complete jobsworth.

If she'd been kinder and at least showed she was doing her best to take people's wishes into consideration while reminding them that she has other cases to deal with then none of this would have happened. Most people will be reasonable and willing to wait a bit if they can see the person on the other side is at least listening to them and doing their best to accommodate reasonable requests.

Surely she was just being honest? In the interests of equality, she was refusing to prioritise one religious group over any other - which is the very definition of equality.

Of course, she could have lied and said "I'll do my best but we are very busy" and just continued to treat all cases equally, but what would that have achieved?

 

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View YT's Profile YT Flag Oxford 03 May 18 4.55pm Send a Private Message to YT Add YT as a friend

Originally posted by topcat

Under Jewish and Islamic law, bodies must be buried on the day of death or as soon as possible afterwards. Which is what was happening.

This case has nothing to do with the rights of the dead but Ms Van Der Zyl and The Board of Deputies of British Jews wanting preferential treatment for Jews.

Not content with (ridiculously) winning their case, they want the coroner to resign for doing her job.

I am starting a new religion which only belief is that when I die The Board of Deputies of British Jews have to pay for my funeral and wake. For them not to would be against my human rights.

This is the crux of it. Anyone, any group of people, is free to start a potty religion - equally potty to any existing religion. We could start a HOL religion that believes a person should be buried
within 4 hours of death.

What we know would happen is that m'learned friends would then absorb pots of taxpayers' money adjudicating on what is a "proper" and what is a "frivolous" religion (completely overlooking the absurdity of the established religious texts).

 


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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 5.22pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stuk

Insert the word "fair", between "only" and "way" in your opening question.

I was asked "why is that the only way". But even if you wanted to insert "fair" into the question that's fine. You've not answered it though.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 5.34pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stuk

I'm sure they'd all appreciate it if she decided to tell them how to do their jobs and in what order.

Religion shouldn't be taken into consideration for giving anyone preferential treatment. It's the very opposite of equality.

I'm an atheist but I have no problem with it. Why shouldn't people be allowed to make requests for religious reasons? The requirement is merely to make reasonable accommodation, not to simply acquiesce to every whim when people mention it's a faith based request. Ignoring requests to follow a self-imposed rule is lazy and jobsworthy. She was in the wrong and should have done what she could within reason. It seems odd that you would argue that she shouldn't have acted reasonably, or that trying to help people who have such requests would somehow be unreasonable. The only reason I can see for thinking that is that you have a problem with people with such views.

Are you suggesting that airlines shouldn't have to offer kosher meals because that would be giving people preferential treatment on the grounds of religion. They always get their meals first as well. Maybe you should complain about that? Your line of argument would follow that airlines shouldn't have to offer kosher/halal meals.

Companies make accommodations for Jewish people on Friday afternoons all across the country. I would suggest it would be unreasonable for a company to not make such accommodations providing that the employee made up the hours/got all their work done. It sounds like you would feel quite the opposite and that it was unreasonable for Jewish people to make such requests.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 5.40pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by YT

This is the crux of it. Anyone, any group of people, is free to start a potty religion - equally potty to any existing religion. We could start a HOL religion that believes a person should be buried
within 4 hours of death.

What we know would happen is that m'learned friends would then absorb pots of taxpayers' money adjudicating on what is a "proper" and what is a "frivolous" religion (completely overlooking the absurdity of the established religious texts).

Not really. It could be fairly easily proven that such a religion was in fact not a religion and not based on any widely and deeply held belief, but merely set up for personal or political reasons.

 

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View CambridgeEagle's Profile CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 03 May 18 5.42pm Send a Private Message to CambridgeEagle Add CambridgeEagle as a friend

Originally posted by npn

Surely she was just being honest? In the interests of equality, she was refusing to prioritise one religious group over any other - which is the very definition of equality.

Of course, she could have lied and said "I'll do my best but we are very busy" and just continued to treat all cases equally, but what would that have achieved?

Honest? About what? That she couldn't be bothered to exercise her legal discretion and refused to even contemplate changing her practice to accommodate religious requests. She didn't need to lie. Other coroners manage to do it perfectly reasonably. Where are the stories of non-Jewish and Muslim people who have had unreasonable delays with a coroner? I've not seen any.

 

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